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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:51:35 -0500
Message-ID: <25890ca0907311551u59d32d03y4d1f951a56b70e02@mail.gmail.com>
From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Regardless,
	these things should be talked about without
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	whole "assume good faith" policy of Wikipedia is a good one when
	dealing
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Regardless, these things should be talked about without mutual accusations
as long as we can expect good faith from others.

The whole "assume good faith" policy of Wikipedia is a good one when dealin=
g
with new editors but of course it is blatant nonsense when confronted with
obvious trolls and POV pushers who've established themselves as such, like,
to pick from disparate topics, Offliner, Skapperod, MK, Deacon, Boodles,
etc.

In fact I usually do divide editors I am in potential conflict with into
those that I can assume are disagreeing with me, but acting in good faith,
and those that are just not worth the trouble and just need to be "got".

In this particular instance, I think somebody like Lvivske is pretty much o=
n
his way to being another nationalistic, obnoxious troll that we'll have to
deal with - though I also think he might be inexperienced and young and it
might be somewhat productive to try to calm him down and reason with him
(this is the "assume good faith when first meeting a new editor" - it might
be a bit too optimistic).

But I think Faustian is acting in good faith - and his response to my email
supports this. He's not out to get anyone blocked or insists on getting his
way - he does seem to be interested in discussion. Obviously he's got a
particular POV - I think he wants to make it "understandable" (which is not
the same thing as "excusable") as to why what happened in Volhynia actually
happened. He might be overdoing it a bit, with too much emphasis on the
"background" section but at the same time he isn't downplaing any of the
actual atrocities that happened nor trying to deny UPA's involvement in the=
m
(which is, if I remember correctly, what Bandurist and Irpen once did). At
this point I think it's reasonable to assume he's acting in good faith. If
turns out otherwise later we can always go back and re edit the article -
you got to remember that on Wiki patience IS a virtue.

But a controversial topic like this is not going to be "solved" with a few
reverts. This is one of those articles where it takes some real work to mak=
e
it good - looking up sources, comparing sources, phrasing things accurately
and so on. At the end of the day nobody can't argue with reliable source -
although what you end up getting is cold academic analysis. But this is an
encyclopedia.

2009/7/31 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>

> Molobo Molobo wrote:
> > Sigh...UPA never engaged in genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them
> > out of Ukrainian territories. The Poles formed a very small minority
> > in Volhyn, smaller then Germans in Pozna=F1 before 1918 actually. They
> > were treating the local population with arrogance and exploited the
> > Ukrainian peasents. This resulted in the massacres in Volhyn. Contrary
> > to Polish myth spreaded by the so-called "Kresowiacy"(mostly people
> > who had once priviliaged position in the Kresy compared to Ukrainians)
> > there never was a peacefull co-existance with Ukrainian poeople there
> > and Poles were foreign element to the locals, that they viewed with
> > hostility due to opressive.
> > My Great-grandfather served with =AFeligowski in order to conquer
> > Lithuanian territories, so I must say I am of Kresowiacy blood as
> > well, but I am able to see the things objectively. Those were not
> > Polish territories, neither they were of any value to Poland, and led
> > to needless wast of resources, wars and bad blood between us and
> > people in the East.
>
> My grandfather, a Polish Army officer, escaped from a peasant mob in '39 =
:)
>
> I'd add to Molobo's point that it is true for countryside (with the
> exceptions of few rare Polish villages). Towns and cities were mostly
> Polish/Jewish.
>
> Bottom line is that while the Ukrainians were extremely brutal in their
> ethnic cleansing, the Poles worked hard to make the Ukrainians hate them
> before the war. And when the table turned, what happened was hardly
> surprising. We can draw analogies to Polish retribution against Jews in
> the same period, for example, or post war Polish retributions against
> Germans, and so on. First, a group dominates the other one, and makes
> them hate the oppressors, then they get their due. Of course, there are
> always differences, but the bottom line is that we need to put them
> behind us and work together to create a better article (world...).
> Calling the other side evil and demanding an apology is hardly helpful;
> one has to wait for the other side (nation) to mature enough to be
> willing to apologize without being forced.
>
> And yes, Poles DO have things to apologize for too - such as for the
> endecja forced poloniztion policies pre-war, that created so much hatred
> between Poles and other Ukrainians/Belorusians/Lithuanians.
>
> One could of course argue that Poles have less to apologize for than
> Ukrainians, and would probably be right, but weighting such moral issues
> is not the most productive pastime out there.
>
> --
> Piotr Konieczny
>
> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
> theory."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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Regardless, these things should be talked about without mutual accusations =
as long as we can expect good faith from others.<br><br>The whole &quot;ass=
ume good faith&quot; policy of Wikipedia is a good one when dealing with ne=
w editors but of course it is blatant nonsense when confronted with obvious=
 trolls and POV pushers who&#39;ve established themselves as such, like, to=
 pick from disparate topics, Offliner, Skapperod, MK, Deacon, Boodles, etc.=
<br>
<br>In fact I usually do divide editors I am in potential conflict with int=
o those that I can assume are disagreeing with me, but acting in good faith=
, and those that are just not worth the trouble and just need to be &quot;g=
ot&quot;.<br>
<br>In this particular instance, I think somebody like Lvivske is pretty mu=
ch on his way to being another nationalistic, obnoxious troll that we&#39;l=
l have to deal with - though I also think he might be inexperienced and you=
ng and it might be somewhat productive to try to calm him down and reason w=
ith him (this is the &quot;assume good faith when first meeting a new edito=
r&quot; - it might be a bit too optimistic). <br>
<br>But I think Faustian is acting in good faith - and his response to my e=
mail supports this. He&#39;s not out to get anyone blocked or insists on ge=
tting his way - he does seem to be interested in discussion. Obviously he&#=
39;s got a particular POV - I think he wants to make it &quot;understandabl=
e&quot; (which is not the same thing as &quot;excusable&quot;) as to why wh=
at happened in Volhynia actually happened. He might be overdoing it a bit, =
with too much emphasis on the &quot;background&quot; section but at the sam=
e time he isn&#39;t downplaing any of the actual atrocities that happened n=
or trying to deny UPA&#39;s involvement in them (which is, if I remember co=
rrectly, what Bandurist and Irpen once did). At this point I think it&#39;s=
 reasonable to assume he&#39;s acting in good faith. If turns out otherwise=
 later we can always go back and re edit the article - you got to remember =
that on Wiki patience IS a virtue.<br>
<br>But a controversial topic like this is not going to be &quot;solved&quo=
t; with a few reverts. This is one of those articles where it takes some re=
al work to make it good - looking up sources, comparing sources, phrasing t=
hings accurately and so on. At the end of the day nobody can&#39;t argue wi=
th reliable source - although what you end up getting is cold academic anal=
ysis. But this is an encyclopedia.<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/31 Piotr Konieczny <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">Molobo Molobo wrote:<br>
&gt; Sigh...UPA never engaged in genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them<b=
r>
&gt; out of Ukrainian territories. The Poles formed a very small minority<b=
r>
&gt; in Volhyn, smaller then Germans in Pozna=F1 before 1918 actually. They=
<br>
&gt; were treating the local population with arrogance and exploited the<br=
>
&gt; Ukrainian peasents. This resulted in the massacres in Volhyn. Contrary=
<br>
&gt; to Polish myth spreaded by the so-called &quot;Kresowiacy&quot;(mostly=
 people<br>
&gt; who had once priviliaged position in the Kresy compared to Ukrainians)=
<br>
&gt; there never was a peacefull co-existance with Ukrainian poeople there<=
br>
&gt; and Poles were foreign element to the locals, that they viewed with<br=
>
&gt; hostility due to opressive.<br>
&gt; My Great-grandfather served with =AFeligowski in order to conquer<br>
&gt; Lithuanian territories, so I must say I am of Kresowiacy blood as<br>
&gt; well, but I am able to see the things objectively. Those were not<br>
&gt; Polish territories, neither they were of any value to Poland, and led<=
br>
&gt; to needless wast of resources, wars and bad blood between us and<br>
&gt; people in the East.<br>
<br>
</div>My grandfather, a Polish Army officer, escaped from a peasant mob in =
&#39;39 :)<br>
<br>
I&#39;d add to Molobo&#39;s point that it is true for countryside (with the=
<br>
exceptions of few rare Polish villages). Towns and cities were mostly<br>
Polish/Jewish.<br>
<br>
Bottom line is that while the Ukrainians were extremely brutal in their<br>
ethnic cleansing, the Poles worked hard to make the Ukrainians hate them<br=
>
before the war. And when the table turned, what happened was hardly<br>
surprising. We can draw analogies to Polish retribution against Jews in<br>
the same period, for example, or post war Polish retributions against<br>
Germans, and so on. First, a group dominates the other one, and makes<br>
them hate the oppressors, then they get their due. Of course, there are<br>
always differences, but the bottom line is that we need to put them<br>
behind us and work together to create a better article (world...).<br>
Calling the other side evil and demanding an apology is hardly helpful;<br>
one has to wait for the other side (nation) to mature enough to be<br>
willing to apologize without being forced.<br>
<br>
And yes, Poles DO have things to apologize for too - such as for the<br>
endecja forced poloniztion policies pre-war, that created so much hatred<br=
>
between Poles and other Ukrainians/Belorusians/Lithuanians.<br>
<br>
One could of course argue that Poles have less to apologize for than<br>
Ukrainians, and would probably be right, but weighting such moral issues<br=
>
is not the most productive pastime out there.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
--<br>
Piotr Konieczny<br>
<br>
&quot;The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in=
<br>
theory.&quot;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">Wikipedia statistics discussion lis=
t<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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