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From: Jack <jacurek@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I'm away
	on
	the trip and can't be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.
	Thanks again. Jacek --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo
	<molobus@gmail.com> wrote: [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found information
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Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I'm away on the trip and can't=
 be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.
Thanks again.
Jacek

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found informatio=
n about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germans
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM


Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as expelled:
http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf

Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):
Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99
dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =C5=BByd=
zi oraz inne
ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przypadki.



W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com=
> napisa=C5=82:

Hi Radek,=20

Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ? An=
yway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.=20
Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english trans=
lation:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291

This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well a=
bove the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for examp=
le by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische Verluste =
im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):

=C2=A0 "The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the=
 immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and =
similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or b=
ring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events =
historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt=
), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical search service did a=
 lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively=
 assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result ca=
n be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been kil=
led during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective t=
erritories who had died during military service.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been a=
n integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of=
 a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population =
balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the=
 expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be=
 assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In t=
he last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned,=
 as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of =
victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an=
 unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the pre=
vious data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be sai=
d, however, that the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that the death of these peo=
ple had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."

I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2 milion =
mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost the art=
icle where it was written.

W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com=
> napisa=C5=82:



> Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so could you look at
> Skapperod's latest argument
> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_I=
I#Overmans]?
> He's trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million figure has=
 to
> be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state that this=
 is
> only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying to take =
one
> single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all there is to it.
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>
>> Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by politicians :
>>
>> http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html
>> "Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia i wysi=
edlenia do swoich
>> dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i liczby,=
 kt=C3=B3re dla
>> nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne"
>>
>> Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be better
>> if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that knows
>> Polish and good add this source.
>>
>>
>> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
>> > I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and if the
>> > numbers
>> > were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article.
>> >
>> > Here is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help you and c=
an
>> > be
>> > added as well to the sources needed
>> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>



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folks@wikipedometer.net
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=0A=0A=0A      
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Thank you guys for taking care of Skappe=
rod. I'm away on the trip and can't be much help but will do it as soon as =
I come back.</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks again.</DIV>
<DIV>Jacek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;molobus@gmai=
l.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;molobus@gmail.com&gt;<BR>=
Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found informatio=
n about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germans<BR>To: "Wikipe=
dia statistics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Tuesday, July 28, =
2009, 6:54 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv939565056>Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust bein=
g counted as expelled:<BR><A href=3D"http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_H=
aar.pdf" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_3=
9_Haar.pdf</A><BR><BR>Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):<BR><I>Do strat z=
wi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99<BR>dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF =
zamordowani niemieccy =C5=BBydzi oraz inne<BR>ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re po=
traktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przypadki.</I><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo =
Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mail=
to:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN> napisa=C5=82:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>Hi Radek, <BR><BR>Coul=
d you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ? Anyway=
 from my memory-Skapperod is lying. <BR>Here is a an example of extensive d=
iscussion on Obverman with english translation:<BR><A href=3D"http://forum.=
axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http=
://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291</A><BR><BR><I>This estimate=
, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well above the mark=
, has recently been challenged by German historians, for example by R=C3=BC=
diger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische Verluste im Zweiten We=
ltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):<BR><BR>&nbsp; "The=
 deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the immediate =
postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and similar eff=
orts were made
 to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A=
 huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the =
Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 =
associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial s=
upport of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those=
 expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the co=
nclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and exp=
ulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died d=
uring military service.<BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp;These casualty figures, however=
, which for decades have been an integral part of the respective serious li=
terature, are the result not of a counting of death records or similar conc=
rete data, but of a population balance which concluded that the fate of abo=
ut 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion territories could not be
 clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their l=
ives in the course of these events. In the last years,<B> however, these st=
atements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of=
 reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been hig=
her than 500,000 persons</B> - which is also an unimaginable number of vict=
ims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the =
hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that<B> the bala=
nce didn=E2=80=99t say that the death of these people had been proven, but =
only that their fate could not be clarified."</B><BR></I><BR>I boldened the=
 important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2 milion mumber does in=
clude some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost the article where it =
was written.<BR><BR>W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga=
 &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsszulga@gma=
il.com"
 rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszu=
lga@gmail.com</A>&gt; napisa=C5=82:
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5><BR>&gt; Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so co=
uld you look at<BR>&gt; Skapperod's latest argument<BR>&gt; [<A href=3D"htt=
p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Over=
mans" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expu=
lsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans</A>]?<BR>&gt; He's trying to c=
laim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million figure has to<BR>&gt; be rev=
ised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state that this is<BR>&=
gt; only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying to tak=
e one<BR>&gt; single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all the=
re is to it.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Radek<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo=
 Molobo &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolob=
us@gmail.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmai=
l.com">molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Hi Jacurek-a clear=
 statement
 that numbers are used by politicians :<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; <A href=3D"=
http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html" rel=3Dnofollow target=
=3D_blank>http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html</A><BR>&gt;&=
gt; "Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia i wys=
iedlenia do swoich<BR>&gt;&gt; dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=
=85 takie wydarzenia i liczby, kt=C3=B3re dla<BR>&gt;&gt; nich s=C4=85 akur=
at wygodne"<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Since Skapperod has started reverting y=
ou perhaps it would be better<BR>&gt;&gt; if you would be assisted by Radek=
 or Tymek or other editor that knows<BR>&gt;&gt; Polish and good add this s=
ource.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<A h=
ref=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" re=
l=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@g=
mail.com</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; I see you are engaging in debate about c=
asualties numbers and if the<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;
 numbers<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Ge=
rmans article.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Here is a usefull source b=
y Polish historian that could help you and can<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; be<BR>&gt;&=
gt; &gt; added as well to the sources needed<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; <A href=3D"ht=
tp://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html" rel=3Dnofollow ta=
rget=3D_blank>http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html</A=
><BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; ________________________________=
_______________<BR>&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<BR>&gt;&gt=
; <A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedom=
eter.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedome=
ter.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR>&gt;&gt; <A href=3D"http://wikipedo=
meter.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>ht=
tp://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<B=
R>&gt;
 _______________________________________________<BR>&gt; Wikipedia statisti=
cs discussion list<BR>&gt; <A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=
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llow target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folk=
s</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>-=
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ikipedia statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wiki=
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er.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer=
..net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></t=
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