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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 03:39:51 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: I agree with Molobo here. I've seen Faustian being
	quite
	reasonable and he's often voted with us against various Soviet or
	closet-Nazi pushers on various occasions (including at the Expulsions).
	I'm more worried that Lvivskie (who's obviously a troll, I actually
	considered the idea that he's a Dr. Dan sock) will provoke Loosemark to
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Volhynia Massacres
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	Content preview:  I agree with Molobo here. I've seen Faustian being quite
	reasonable and he's often voted with us against various Soviet or
	closet-Nazi pushers on various occasions (including at the Expulsions).
	I'm more worried that Lvivskie (who's obviously a troll, I actually
	considered the idea that he's a Dr. Dan sock) will provoke Loosemark to
	a point where an agreement can't be worked out - it'd be a typical case
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I agree with Molobo here. I've seen Faustian being quite reasonable and he's
often voted with us against various Soviet or closet-Nazi pushers on various
occasions (including at the Expulsions). I'm more worried that Lvivskie
(who's obviously a troll, I actually considered the idea that he's a Dr. Dan
sock) will provoke Loosemark to a point where an agreement can't be worked
out - it'd be a typical case of a radical trolling user who radicalizes
others, which should be prevented.

Radek


2009/7/15 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

> Faustian is capable of reasonable debate, here he is a bit passionate
> about the subject-but that can be somewhat understood considering the
> importance of the topic.
> Now the remark
> "Third, considering WW2 began due to TOV Polish occupation of German
> territories, how could Poland expect anything be returned at all?" is
> obvious flaming by Lvivskie (not to mention historically ignorant as
> mostwere territories taken in partitions of Poland) and perhaps should
> be recorded for future if he makes such attempts again.
>
> What would be good is to list the points of disagreements and then work on
> each.
> There is to me no controversy on the fact that Poles made up only 8 %
> or so of population of Volhynia and Ukrainians had the just right to
> the territory.
> What I would change is
> "Polish commanders had explained that this would involve a war against
> Ukrainians followed by a swift "armed occupation" of the disputed
> territories."
>
> From the context of the article readers could imply that this would be
> war against Ukrainian population-I believe they considered fight with
> Ukrainian armed forces. As sad as it is the civilian population
> probably would be subjected to attempts to make them Poles, also
> Polish nationalists often didn't see Ukrainians as nation(this
> repulsive opinion is sometimes still founded in far-right circles in
> Poland)
>
> So I would  change the sentence to
>
> "Polish commanders had explained that this would involve a war against
> Ukrainian forces followed by a swift "armed occupation" of the
> disputed territories."
>
>
> I would welcome Ostap comments.
>
> This is an interesting case as likely we have a different views on the
> subject here on the very list. It is important to leave any emotions
> aside and try to reach some neutral joint view. I think it also
> wouldn't hurt from our Polish side to underline that indeed Volhyn was
> Ukrainian and Poles were minority there, that discriminated Ukrainian
> side.
>
> 2009/7/14 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>:
> > Any thoughts or comments on the discussion/situation at:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia
> >
> > I can see why Loosemark is bothered by this and I think Lvivskie is
> trying
> > to provoke something here but this is a difficult subject so other
> opinions
> > would be welcome.
> >
> > Radek
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
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I agree with Molobo here. I&#39;ve seen Faustian being quite reasonable and=
 he&#39;s often voted with us against various Soviet or closet-Nazi pushers=
 on various occasions (including at the Expulsions). I&#39;m more worried t=
hat Lvivskie (who&#39;s obviously a troll, I actually considered the idea t=
hat he&#39;s a Dr. Dan sock) will provoke Loosemark to a point where an agr=
eement can&#39;t be worked out - it&#39;d be a typical case of a radical tr=
olling user who radicalizes others, which should be prevented.<br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/15 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1p=
x solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Faustian is capable of reasonable debate, here he is a bit passionate<br>
about the subject-but that can be somewhat understood considering the<br>
importance of the topic.<br>
Now the remark<br>
&quot;Third, considering WW2 began due to TOV Polish occupation of German<b=
r>
territories, how could Poland expect anything be returned at all?&quot; is<=
br>
obvious flaming by Lvivskie (not to mention historically ignorant as<br>
mostwere territories taken in partitions of Poland) and perhaps should<br>
be recorded for future if he makes such attempts again.<br>
<br>
What would be good is to list the points of disagreements and then work on =
each.<br>
There is to me no controversy on the fact that Poles made up only 8 %<br>
or so of population of Volhynia and Ukrainians had the just right to<br>
the territory.<br>
What I would change is<br>
&quot;Polish commanders had explained that this would involve a war against=
<br>
Ukrainians followed by a swift &quot;armed occupation&quot; of the disputed=
<br>
territories.&quot;<br>
<br>
>From the context of the article readers could imply that this would be<br>
war against Ukrainian population-I believe they considered fight with<br>
Ukrainian armed forces. As sad as it is the civilian population<br>
probably would be subjected to attempts to make them Poles, also<br>
Polish nationalists often didn&#39;t see Ukrainians as nation(this<br>
repulsive opinion is sometimes still founded in far-right circles in<br>
Poland)<br>
<br>
So I would =A0change the sentence to<br>
<br>
&quot;Polish commanders had explained that this would involve a war against=
<br>
Ukrainian forces followed by a swift &quot;armed occupation&quot; of the<br=
>
disputed territories.&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
I would welcome Ostap comments.<br>
<br>
This is an interesting case as likely we have a different views on the<br>
subject here on the very list. It is important to leave any emotions<br>
aside and try to reach some neutral joint view. I think it also<br>
wouldn&#39;t hurt from our Polish side to underline that indeed Volhyn was<=
br>
Ukrainian and Poles were minority there, that discriminated Ukrainian<br>
side.<br>
<br>
2009/7/14 radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Any thoughts or comments on the disc=
ussion/situation at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Massacres_of_Poles_in_Vol=
hynia" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Massacres_of_Pol=
es_in_Volhynia</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I can see why Loosemark is bothered by this and I think Lvivskie is tr=
ying<br>
&gt; to provoke something here but this is a difficult subject so other opi=
nions<br>
&gt; would be welcome.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Radek<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; ________________________=
_______________________<br>
&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a>=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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