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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 14:50:37 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: "And the history is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 -
	99% German cities in 1939, while Lwow and Wilno were predominantly
	Polish cities." And how much German would Warsaw be in 1970 if Nazi
	Germany would win ? [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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"And the history is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in
1939, while Lwow and Wilno were predominantly Polish cities."

And how much German would Warsaw be in 1970 if Nazi Germany would win ?

As to plebiscites-they were both manipulated and influenced by the
Polish-Bolshevik war. Poland would likely get more of Warmia and Mazury if
that didn't happened(and actually Polish representatives were too afraid of
their own lives to be active there), Of course plebiscites perhaps wouldn't
have happened if for example voice of people like Halford John MacKinder wh=
o
advocat**ed giving East Prussia in whole to Poland.

*Poland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all about "honor" as Jozef Bec=
k
said. We should have allowed Gdansk to become part of Germany, as the city'=
s
population wished, and then wait how the events would turn out.*

Oh, Tymek, Tymek:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/hitler-and-poland.html


*Formulation and Execution of the Plan to Invade Poland*

*The next phase of the aggression was the formulation and execution of the
plan to attack Poland, resulting in the initiation of aggressive war in
September 1939. Here again the careful and meticulous record keeping of
Hitler's adjutant, Schmundt, has provided a document in his own handwriting
which throws down the mask (L-79). The document consists of minutes of a
conference held on 23 May 1939. The place of the conference was the
Fuehrer's Study in the New Reich Chancellery. Goering, Raeder and Keitel
were present. The subject of the meeting was, "Indoctrination on the
political situation and future aims." *

*The authenticity and accuracy of Schmundt's record of the meeting of 23 Ma=
y
1939 has been admitted by Keitel in a pretrial interrogation. The minutes
read as follows:
*

(...)

*"Danzig is not the subject of the dispute at all. It is a question of
expanding our living space in the East and of securing our food supplies, o=
f
the settlement of the Baltic problem. Food supplies can be expected only
from thinly populated areas. Over and above the natural fertility, thorough=
-
going German exploitation will enormously increase the surplus. *

Btw I am watching today Merkel and Steinbach and expellee (they always make
those meetings before 1st September) crying about how big victims Germans
are of WW2 and how wrongly they were treated.

But anywhow some Poles are interested more in couple of cyclists with Bader=
a
t-shirts it seems.

Have a good weekend.

*
*


2009/8/22 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>

> Molobo, and how would you imagine Warmia and Mazury being part of Poland
> after WW1? Against the wishes of 97% of its population? How would you
> imagine annexation of Opole, against the wishes of 95% of its population?
>
> I too think that Poland made a major mistake, and wasted its resources on
> senseless wars with Russia and Turkey, plus Cossack uprisings, and plus
> union with Lvthuania, which brought us nothing good. I too think that our
> kings neglected Silesia and Pomerania, but we cannot change history. And =
the
> history is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in 1939,
> while Lwow and Wilno were predominantly Polish cities.
>
> Of course annexation of Volhynia in 1921 was a very stupid idea, of cours=
e
> Pilsudski cared too much about east, and too little about west. But you
> cannot change the fact that in the area of Tarnopol, Poles made some 40 -
> 45% of population, in the are of Grodno - 60%, while in Gdansk/Danzig Pol=
es
> made only some 5%.
>
> It is blind stubborness of Polish elite in the 1930s that was one of the
> reasons of WW2, and we have to admit it. After construction of Gdynia,
> Poland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all about "honor" as Jozef Be=
ck
> said. We should have allowed Gdansk to become part of Germany, as the cit=
y's
> population wished, and then wait how the events would turn out.
>
>
> Tymek
>
> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 8:05 PM
>
>
> I'd love to continue this conversation. But it's time to go since the tra=
in
> is early in the morning. Next time.
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
> >
>
>> "I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refuse=
d
>> to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the
>> subject matter)."
>> Actually Denikin agreed at last to Polish state-but with the border on
>> Bug, which Pilsudski refused and allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin
>> armies.
>> As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they
>> offered no resources, no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish
>> majority almost anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps,
>> marshes, hostile population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland ha=
d
>> developed agriculture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn't ne=
ed
>> any anymore at that price. Besides-they required constant police
>> supervision, where the breeding ground of resistance against Poland, dra=
ined
>> money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not build its position on
>> agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its army and modern
>> transporation.
>> You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:
>> http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php
>>
>> They show how big wasteland the Kresy were.  It makes me cry that Poles
>> lost so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their
>> nationalism.
>>
>>
>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com>
>> > napisa=B3:
>>
>>> I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refuse=
d
>>> to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on th=
e
>>> subject matter). The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Cur=
zon
>>> line vs. Silesia) could actually have been made. Pilsudski was
>>> understandably afraid that compromising on either would mean a loss of =
both.
>>> I think he was right in that regard.elo
>>>
>>>
>>> From a purely economic point of view I'm not so sure that the coal of
>>> Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and especiall=
y
>>> commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry, coal=
,
>>> steel and all that. But that's only because Britain, which was the firs=
t to
>>> industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on services.
>>> Belgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricultura=
l
>>> products. France's "industrialization" (a misnomer) was in good part
>>> agriculture driven. So I don't think that getting the mineral rich Sile=
sia
>>> instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something worth fighting f=
or -
>>> on economic grounds.
>>>
>>>
>>> Radek
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.c=
om/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> I don't have illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative  and mo=
re
>>>> part of Entente would not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-whi=
ch is
>>>> an accusation oft given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperation=
 and
>>>> military thrust when WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a st=
ronger
>>>> Russia would be needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW with
>>>> Germany. A Poland largely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be =
a
>>>> richer, safer and better Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federat=
e
>>>> anyway. And of course what is usually forgotten is that Endeks as supp=
orters
>>>> of neoslavism were more supportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. Bu=
t as
>>>> you know it's AH today.
>>>>
>>>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drssz=
ulga@gmail.com>
>>>> > napisa=B3:
>>>>
>>>> It's certainly possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was
>>>>> too little too late - still, I think he had the right idea though pos=
sibly
>>>>> at the wrong time. His ideas though should've been given a chance and=
 not
>>>>> have been torpodoed by Dmowski's people who were motivated much more =
by
>>>>> "racism" (if that's an appropriate term here) which eventually result=
ed in
>>>>> the pacifications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any kind of clear=
ly
>>>>> defined national interest. I think you're giving Dmowski too much cre=
dit
>>>>> here - it's not like the guy was a big supporter of Ukrainian indepen=
dence.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the
>>>>> integration with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the
>>>>> Jasienica view I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away f=
rom
>>>>> Western Europe. But Pilsudski came 500+ years after Grunwald and he h=
ad to
>>>>> deal with the reality he inherited - it was as unrealistic to try and=
 turn
>>>>> back the clock at that point as it was to try to form a "Poland for P=
oles".
>>>>> All things considered I think that inegrationist/multicultural progra=
m was
>>>>> the most realistic of all available options.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Radek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, to me personally Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish
>>>>>> thought and all of ills that Kresy brough(I for example believe that=
 the
>>>>>> fall of Poland started with integration with Lithuania, bringing Lit=
huanian
>>>>>> magnats into power, and the economic system of feudal plantations of
>>>>>> Ukrainians as base of Polish economy). Would much prefer a scenario =
after
>>>>>> WW1 where in which Poland is smaller but more western oriented with =
ethnic
>>>>>> Polish territories in Silesia, Warmia, and Dmowski helped the White =
Russians
>>>>>> win, which resulted in Central European alliance of slavic countries=
 under
>>>>>> aegis of Federated Russian Republic. But that is Alternate History
>>>>>> alltogether :D Still I respect you as a person and your views. I jus=
t don't
>>>>>> think they are correct. I read the diaries or opinions of Poles from=
 early
>>>>>> XX century and they would not allow for any coexistance with Ukraini=
an or
>>>>>> Belarussian minorites.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drs=
szulga@gmail.com>
>>>>>> > napisa=B3:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I know some crazy people too.
>>>>>>> Heh, it sounds like you really took your Jasienica (who of course w=
as
>>>>>>> part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart. I dunno, it's just a big =
"What If"
>>>>>>> - interesting to muse about but just not applicable to analyzing hi=
story as
>>>>>>> she really happened. My big "what if" is what if the interwar Pilsu=
dski
>>>>>>> Poland could have transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic, to=
lerant
>>>>>>> state like the US that knew how to gain from its inherent multicult=
uralism
>>>>>>> rather than letting itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalries w=
hich only
>>>>>>> benefited its enemies/neighbors. I'm pretty aware that I'm only "Po=
lish" by
>>>>>>> a few accidents of history. This is also why I'm not a big fan of t=
he
>>>>>>> Endecja derived movements of today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Radek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really I know quite a few people who would or do.
>>>>>>>> As to Przemysl it was originally part of Ukrainian state and
>>>>>>>> unfortunetely will remain a sore point in future relations.
>>>>>>>> I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 would regain
>>>>>>>> Kr=F3lewiec and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, while=
 leaving all
>>>>>>>> conquered Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not perfect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2009/8/22 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Nobody serious in Poland demands former Polish territories
>>>>>>>>> called Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, th=
ere are
>>>>>>>>> Ukrainian organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, =
and I hope
>>>>>>>>> you know about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeast=
ern Poland.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.=
mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> >* wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
>>>>>>>>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc3=
28.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 5:12 PM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in
>>>>>>>>> Ukraine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by
>>>>>>>>> rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once=
 taken over
>>>>>>>>> by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hat=
e speech of
>>>>>>>>> certain kresowiacy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.mai=
l.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian
>>>>>>>>>> policitians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russia=
ns, by
>>>>>>>>>> erecting monuments to and praising people whom the Poles regard =
as
>>>>>>>>>> murderers. Am I right or not?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BTW do you know who is main ally of a German pro-Nazi National
>>>>>>>>>> Democratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html and here
>>>>>>>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us=
.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> >* wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulatio=
n
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc=
328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion
>>>>>>>>>> that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingl=
y) and even
>>>>>>>>>> a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko=
 himself was
>>>>>>>>>> a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has al=
so written
>>>>>>>>>> on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that
>>>>>>>>>> kresowiacy work for the benefit or Russia and that society has n=
ever been
>>>>>>>>>> screened well for Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin's puppet=
s like the
>>>>>>>>>> seperatists from Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters of=
 support to
>>>>>>>>>> kresowiacy.
>>>>>>>>>> You know the saying "*You Will Know Them* By Their *Fruits*"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>>>>>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Drsszulga@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> > napisa=B3:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion
>>>>>>>>>>> that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwitting=
ly) and even
>>>>>>>>>>> a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszk=
o himself was
>>>>>>>>>>> a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has a=
lso written
>>>>>>>>>>> on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest w=
hen lots of
>>>>>>>>>>> AK units "revealed" themselves to the Soviets as part of the wh=
ole "ally of
>>>>>>>>>>> our allies" world view (this is why NSZ, even though they playe=
d a far more
>>>>>>>>>>> minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role i=
n the
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting with the communists after the war). But I think you're=
 jumping to
>>>>>>>>>>> conclusions here, before the actual research can come out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Radek
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mai=
l.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement th=
at
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, =
it's possible
>>>>>>>>>>>> but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"
>>>>>>>>>>>>  The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being
>>>>>>>>>>>> researched. The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However=
 known
>>>>>>>>>>>> research indicates that this was very extensive and widespread=
.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can look for more detailed data later but for now:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *W swojej ksi=B1=BFce "Miecz i tarcza komunizmu" pisze pan, =
=BFe
>>>>>>>>>>>> sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=
=B3a to silna
>>>>>>>>>>>> infiltracja?*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=
=EApu do
>>>>>>>>>>>> sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie je=
st tylko problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polsk=
iego pa=F1stwa
>>>>>>>>>>>> podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunistyc=
znych, gdzie
>>>>>>>>>>>> podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=
=EAcie o rozmiarach tej
>>>>>>>>>>>> akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=BFe=
 ich skuteczno=B6=E6,
>>>>>>>>>>>> zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To, =BFe polska bezpieka i NKWD=
 stosunkowo =B3atwo
>>>>>>>>>>>> "oczy=B6ci=B3y" teren Polski z ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiado=
mo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA
>>>>>>>>>>>> w jaki=B6 op=F3r, to =B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=
=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=B1
>>>>>>>>>>>> skal=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6 skuteczne. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-=
czlowiek.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Machcewicz =B6wietnie pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne
>>>>>>>>>>>> podzia=B3y sceny politycznej dezorganizowa=B3y funkcjonowanie =
podziemia, jak
>>>>>>>>>>>> przebiega=B3a infiltracja =B6rodowisk AK-owskich przez sowieck=
i wywiad, a z
>>>>>>>>>>>> drugiej strony, na czym polega=B3a zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy=
 obozem
>>>>>>>>>>>> demokrat=F3w, sanacj=B1 i narodowcami - rywalizacja, kt=F3ra p=
rowadzi=B3a do zbrodni
>>>>>>>>>>>> i samos=B1d=F3w.
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_hist=
orie_polski_od_nowa.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>> *A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? *
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szerega=
ch
>>>>>>>>>>>> polskich w=B3adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=
=B3ywy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wykorzystywali to, =BFe AK z czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mo=
cno w lewo. Polskie
>>>>>>>>>>>> podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zg=
odnych z niemieckimi
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja =
"Burza" z
>>>>>>>>>>>> powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko =
jedna strona -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 pytanie, czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, =
a je=BFeli tak, to w
>>>>>>>>>>>> jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na to, =BFe Warszawa akurat 1 sie=
rpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a
>>>>>>>>>>>> do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie mog=B3aby si=EA okaza=E6 s=
zokuj=B1ca.
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupi=
d
>>>>>>>>>>>> Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed
>>>>>>>>>>>> Volhyn with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And the=
y did. Which I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this=
 stance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  "And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole"
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a Pole not a* kresowiak *who is more interested in dreams
>>>>>>>>>>>> of owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know l=
oooved being
>>>>>>>>>>>> under Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowia=
k mindset) in
>>>>>>>>>>>> mudflats of Kresy, rather  about good of Poland. Currently I c=
an think of no
>>>>>>>>>>>> other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles =
and Polish
>>>>>>>>>>>> state the *kresowiacy. *The support they receive from Putin an=
d
>>>>>>>>>>>> the amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they=
 working
>>>>>>>>>>>> for-even if they are as Lenin put it "useful idiots".
>>>>>>>>>>>> So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to *kresowiak=
*if that's what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all
>>>>>>>>>>>> other Poles just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I =
do not play
>>>>>>>>>>>> their game. The kresowiaks should understand that the interest=
 of Polish
>>>>>>>>>>>> people and Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at=
 Ukrainians we
>>>>>>>>>>>> once opressed or dreaming about wooden villages in muds and sw=
amps of Kresy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  "Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of populati=
on of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in=
 1921, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the V=
olhynian
>>>>>>>>>>>> Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans. They had all the=
 reasons to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Gr=
udziadz,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and 66% of Torun was German. Nine years later, these cities be=
came part of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minor=
ity as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, nobody justifies the Germans."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish =
to
>>>>>>>>>>>> which Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign occup=
ation and no
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Viln=
ius were not
>>>>>>>>>>>> Polish but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuan=
ia.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse
>>>>>>>>>>>> the killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale"
>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by
>>>>>>>>>>>> Polish militias.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated tha=
t
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes=
 to pack the
>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD lo=
ok any better?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove =
the Latvians
>>>>>>>>>>>> from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported th=
em to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Siberia?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Volhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.=
mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Poles, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in=
 the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interbellum, who wanted to get rid of the Jews. The differenc=
e is that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Polish party or organization even suggested mass murder of Je=
wish minority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Poland. The ideal was to move them somewhere out of the co=
untry, most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferrably to Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that=
 they did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only endorse the killings, but actually organized them, on a =
large scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And no sources inform us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles =
in advance to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> move away. They just came to the villages and began the slaug=
hter without
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any warning. Anyway, even if they had warned the Poles, it do=
es not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> change anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated tha=
t
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minute=
s to pack the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD l=
ook any better?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove=
 the Latvians
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported t=
hem to Siberia?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder o=
f
>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilians can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killin=
g Poles, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poles killing Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of th=
e area of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jedwabne had all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very a=
ctively
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cooperated with Soviet regime, and their cooperation resulted=
 in thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Poles deported to Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Neve=
r, under no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of populat=
ion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany i=
n 1921, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the =
Volhynian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans. They had all th=
e reasons to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of G=
rudziadz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 66% of Torun was German. Nine years later, these cities b=
ecame part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the mino=
rity as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, nobody justifies the Germans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the Germans only wanted to remove Poles from what they r=
egarded as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> German lands, and they gave a notice before transferring the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilian population to central Poland (General Government)? D=
uring the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interbellum, the discrimination of German minority of Poland =
was so severe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that 85% Germans had left Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Ye=
t, no German
>>>>>>>>>>>>> uses this as a justification for the events of WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than a=
ny
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses f=
or Jedwabne,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pawlokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wie=
lkopolski in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1919. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can neve=
r be excused.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
folks@wikipedometer.net>
>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Df=
olks@wikipedometer.net>
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfo=
lks@wikipedometer.net>
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

--001485f626b0772c500471ba6e8f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

&quot;And the history is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German citie=
s
in 1939, while Lwow and Wilno were predominantly Polish cities.&quot;<br><b=
r>And how much German would Warsaw be in 1970 if Nazi Germany would win ?<b=
r><br>As to plebiscites-they were both manipulated and influenced by the Po=
lish-Bolshevik war. Poland would likely get more of Warmia and Mazury if th=
at didn&#39;t happened(and actually Polish representatives were too afraid =
of their own lives to be active there), Of course plebiscites perhaps would=
n&#39;t have happened if for example voice of <span style=3D"visibility: vi=
sible;" id=3D"main"><span style=3D"visibility: visible;" id=3D"search">peop=
le like Halford John MacKinder who advocat<em></em></span></span>ed giving =
East Prussia in whole to Poland.<br>
<br><i>Poland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all about &quot;honor&qu=
ot; as Jozef
Beck said. We should have allowed Gdansk to become part of Germany, as
the city&#39;s population wished, and then wait how the events would turn
out.</i><br><br>Oh, Tymek, Tymek:<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.nizkor.org/h=
web/people/h/hitler-adolf/hitler-and-poland.html">http://www.nizkor.org/hwe=
b/people/h/hitler-adolf/hitler-and-poland.html</a><br><br><br><h3><i><font =
size=3D"4" face=3D"Arial Black"><font size=3D"3"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"a=
rial">Formulation and Execution of the Plan to Invade Poland</font></font><=
/font></i></h3>

<p><i><font size=3D"4" face=3D"Arial Black"><font size=3D"3"><font size=3D"=
3" face=3D"arial"><span><span><span><span>The next phase of the aggression =
was the formulation and
execution of the plan to <span style=3D"border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(102, 0=
, 0); text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; f=
ont-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-family: arial;" class=3D"IL_LINK_=
STYLE">attack</span> Poland, resulting in the
initiation of aggressive war in September 1939. Here again
the careful and meticulous </span><span style=3D"border-bottom: 1px solid r=
gb(102, 0, 0); text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0); font-size=
: 16px; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-family: arial;" class=3D=
"IL_LINK_STYLE">record keeping</span> of Hitler&#39;s
adjutant, Schmundt, has provided a document in his own
handwriting which throws down the mask (L-79). The document
consists of minutes of a </span><span style=3D"border-bottom: 1px solid rgb=
(102, 0, 0); text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0); font-size: =
16px; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-family: arial;" class=3D"I=
L_LINK_STYLE">conference</span> held on 23 May 1939. The
place of the <span class=3D"IL_SPAN"><input name=3D"IL_MARKER" type=3D"hidd=
en">conference</span> was the Fuehrer&#39;s Study in the New
Reich Chancellery. Goering, </span><span style=3D"border-bottom: 1px solid =
rgb(102, 0, 0); text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0); font-siz=
e: 16px; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; font-family: arial;" class=
=3D"IL_LINK_STYLE">Raeder</span><span> and Keitel were present.
The subject of the meeting was, &quot;Indoctrination on the
political <span style=3D"border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(102, 0, 0); text-deco=
ration: underline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400=
; font-style: normal; font-family: arial;" class=3D"IL_LINK_STYLE">situatio=
n</span> and future aims.&quot;

</span></span></font></font></font></i></p><p><i><font size=3D"4" face=3D"A=
rial Black"><font size=3D"3"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"arial">The authentici=
ty and accuracy of Schmundt&#39;s record of the
meeting of 23 May 1939 has been admitted by Keitel in a
pretrial interrogation. The minutes read as follows: <br></font></font></fo=
nt></i></p><p>(...)</p><p><i><b><font size=3D"4" face=3D"Arial Black"><font=
 size=3D"3"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"arial">&quot;Danzig is not the subject=
 of the dispute at all. It is
     a question of expanding our living space in the East
     and of securing our food supplies, of the settlement of
     the Baltic problem. Food supplies can be expected only
     from thinly populated areas. Over and above the natural fertility, tho=
rough-
     going German exploitation will enormously increase the
     surplus.
    =20
     </font></font></font></b></i></p><p>Btw I am watching today Merkel and=
 Steinbach and expellee (they always make those meetings before 1st Septemb=
er) crying about how big victims Germans are of WW2 and how wrongly they we=
re treated.</p>
<p>But anywhow some Poles are interested more in couple of cyclists with Ba=
dera t-shirts it seems.</p><p>Have a good weekend.<br></p><p><i><font size=
=3D"4" face=3D"Arial Black"><font size=3D"3"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"arial=
"><br></font></font></font></i></p>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/22 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;=
</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px soli=
d rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Molobo, and&nbsp;how would you imagine Warmia and Mazury being part of=
 Poland after WW1? Against the wishes of 97% of its population? How would y=
ou imagine annexation of Opole, against the wishes of 95% of its population=
?</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I too think that Poland made a major mistake, and wasted its resources=
 on senseless wars with Russia and Turkey, plus Cossack uprisings, and plus=
 union with Lvthuania, which brought us nothing good. I too think that our =
kings neglected Silesia and Pomerania, but we cannot change history. And th=
e history is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in 1939, w=
hile Lwow and Wilno were predominantly Polish cities.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Of course annexation of Volhynia in 1921 was a very stupid idea, of co=
urse Pilsudski cared too much about east, and too little about west. But yo=
u cannot change the fact that in the area of Tarnopol, Poles made some 40 -=
 45% of population, in the are of Grodno - 60%, while in Gdansk/Danzig Pole=
s made only some 5%. </div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It is blind stubborness of Polish elite in the 1930s that was one of t=
he reasons of WW2, and we have to admit it. After construction of Gdynia, P=
oland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all about &quot;honor&quot; as J=
ozef Beck said. We should have allowed Gdansk to become part of Germany, as=
 the city&#39;s population wished, and then wait how the events would turn =
out. </div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, radek szulga <i>&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:rsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></=
b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszu=
lga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;<div class=3D"im=
"><br>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<br>To: &q=
uot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br></div>Date: Friday,=
 August 21, 2009, 8:05 PM<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
<div>I&#39;d love to continue this conversation. But it&#39;s time to go si=
nce the train is early in the morning. Next time.<br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>&quot;I think you got it backwards - it&#39;s Denikin and then Wrangel=
 who refused to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambig=
ous on the subject matter).&quot;<br></div>Actually Denikin agreed at last =
to Polish state-but with the border on Bug, which Pilsudski refused and all=
owed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies.<br>
As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they of=
fered no resources, no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish majorit=
y almost anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, host=
ile population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland had developed agri=
culture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn&#39;t need any anymor=
e at that price. Besides-they required constant police supervision, where t=
he breeding ground of resistance against Poland, drained money that was nee=
ded elswhere. Poland could not build its position on agriculture anyway-it =
needed industry to build its
 army and modern transporation.<br>You are welcomed to see the maps made by=
 Romer:<br><a href=3D"http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php" rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php</a><br><br>The=
y show how big wasteland the Kresy were.&nbsp; It makes me cry that Poles l=
ost so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their nati=
onalism.<br>
<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=BFytkownik radek=
 szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulg=
a@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I think you got i=
t backwards - it&#39;s Denikin and then Wrangel who refused to cooperate wi=
th Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the subject matter). =
The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Curzon line vs. Silesia)=
 could actually have been made. Pilsudski was understandably afraid that co=
mpromising on either would mean a loss of both. I think he was right in tha=
t regard.elo
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>From a purely economic point of view I&#39;m not so sure that =
the coal of Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and e=
specially commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry=
, coal, steel and all that. But that&#39;s only because Britain, which was =
the first to industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on se=
rvices. Belgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricul=
tural products. France&#39;s &quot;industrialization&quot; (a misnomer) was=
 in good part agriculture driven. So I don&#39;t think that getting the min=
eral rich Silesia instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something wo=
rth fighting for -&nbsp; on economic grounds.
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I don&#39;t have =
illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative&nbsp; and more part of En=
tente would not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-which is an accusa=
tion oft given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperation and military =
thrust when WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a stronger Russia =
would be needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW with Germany. A P=
oland largely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be a richer, safer a=
nd better Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federate anyway. And of cou=
rse what is usually forgotten is that Endeks as supporters of neoslavism we=
re more supportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. But as you know it&#39;=
s AH today.<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=BFytkownik radek=
 szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulg=
a@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">It&#39;s certainl=
y possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was too little too lat=
e - still, I think he had the right idea though possibly at the wrong time.=
 His ideas though should&#39;ve been given a chance and not have been torpo=
doed by Dmowski&#39;s people who were motivated much more by &quot;racism&q=
uot; (if that&#39;s an appropriate term here) which eventually resulted in =
the pacifications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any kind of clearly def=
ined national interest. I think you&#39;re giving Dmowski too much credit h=
ere - it&#39;s not like the guy was a big supporter of Ukrainian independen=
ce.<br>
<br>But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the integ=
ration with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the Jasienica v=
iew I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away from Western Europ=
e. But Pilsudski came 500+
 years after Grunwald and he had to deal with the reality he inherited - it=
 was as unrealistic to try and turn back the clock at that point as it was =
to try to form a &quot;Poland for Poles&quot;. All things considered I thin=
k that inegrationist/multicultural program was the most realistic of all av=
ailable options.
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Oh, to me persona=
lly Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish thought and all of ills that=
 Kresy brough(I for example believe that the fall of Poland started with in=
tegration with Lithuania, bringing Lithuanian magnats into power, and the e=
conomic system of feudal plantations of Ukrainians as base of Polish econom=
y). Would much prefer a scenario after WW1 where in which Poland is smaller=
 but more western oriented with ethnic Polish territories in Silesia, Warmi=
a, and Dmowski helped the White Russians win, which resulted in Central Eur=
opean alliance of slavic countries under aegis of Federated Russian Republi=
c. But that is Alternate History alltogether :D Still I respect you as a pe=
rson and your views. I just don&#39;t think they are correct. I read the di=
aries or opinions of Poles from early XX century and they would not allow f=
or any
 coexistance with Ukrainian or Belarussian minorites.<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=BFytkownik radek=
 szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulg=
a@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Well, I know some=
 crazy people too.<br>Heh, it sounds like you really took your Jasienica (w=
ho of course was part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart. I dunno, it&#39;=
s just a big &quot;What If&quot; - interesting to muse about but just not a=
pplicable to analyzing history as she really happened. My big &quot;what if=
&quot; is what if the interwar Pilsudski Poland could have transformed itse=
lf into a viable multi-ethnic, tolerant state like the US that knew how to =
gain from its inherent multiculturalism rather than letting itself be succu=
mbed to inter ethnic rivalries which only benefited its enemies/neighbors. =
I&#39;m pretty aware that I&#39;m only &quot;Polish&quot; by a few accident=
s of history. This is also why I&#39;m not a big fan of the Endecja derived=
 movements of today.
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Really I know qui=
te a few people who would or do.<br>As to Przemysl it was originally part o=
f Ukrainian state and unfortunetely will remain a sore point in future rela=
tions.<br>
I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 would regain Kr=F3lewiec an=
d achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, while leaving all conquered =
Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not perfect.<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/22 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Nobody serious&nbsp;in Poland demands former Polish territories called=
 Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there are Ukrainia=
n organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hope you kno=
w about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Poland.</div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nof=
ollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br></div>=
</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/=
mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molob=
us@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russia=
n manipulation<br>
To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D=
"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br></div>Date: Friday, August 21, =
2009, 5:12 PM
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in Ukrai=
ne.<br><br>As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by=
 rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once taken ov=
er by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hate speec=
h of certain kresowiacy.<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian policit=
ians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russians, by erecting mo=
numents to and praising&nbsp;people whom the Poles regard as murderers. Am =
I right or not?</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>BTW do you know who is main ally of a&nbsp;German pro-Nazi National De=
mocratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here <a href=3D"http://www.natvan.com/=
national-vanguard/117/ndp.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html</a>&nbsp;and here <a href=3D"h=
ttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg" rel=3D"nofollow" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg</a>=
</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nof=
ollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.m=
c328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;=20
<div><br>Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<=
br>To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>
</div>Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>&quot;It&#39;s a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusi=
on that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and e=
ven a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himsel=
f was a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also wr=
itten on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.<br>
<br>That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that kresowiacy w=
ork for the benefit or Russia and that society has never been screened well=
 for Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin&#39;s puppets like the seperatis=
ts from Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters of support to kresowia=
cy. <br>
You know the saying &quot;<i>You Will Know Them</i> By Their <i>Fruits</i>&=
quot;<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=BFytkownik radek=
 szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulg=
a@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">It&#39;s a quite =
long jump from what you present to the conclusion that the Volhunian AK was=
 acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger jump to the imp=
lication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet agent - parti=
cularly since at least his daughter has also written on NKVD and communist =
crimes in Volhynia.<br>
<br>As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn&#39;t =
be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of AK units =
&quot;revealed&quot; themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole &quot;a=
lly of our allies&quot; world view (this is why NSZ, even though they playe=
d a far more minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role =
in the fighting with the communists after the war). But I think you&#39;re =
jumping to conclusions here, before the actual research can come
 out.<br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc3=
28.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>&quot;Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that =
the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it&#39;s poss=
ible but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders&quot;<br></div>

<div>
<div></div>
<div>The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. =
The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates=
 that this was very extensive and widespread.<br>I can look for more detail=
ed data later but for now:<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405" r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print=
.aspx?id=3D68405</a><br><br>
<div><i><b>W swojej ksi=B1=BFce &bdquo;Miecz i tarcza komunizmu&rdquo; pisz=
e pan, =BFe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=
=B3a to silna infiltracja?</b></i></div>
<div><i>Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=EApu d=
o sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie jest tylko pr=
oblem sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polskiego pa=
=F1stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunistycznych=
, gdzie podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=EAcie =
o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=
=BFe ich skuteczno=B6=E6, zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To, =BFe polska be=
zpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =B3atwo &bdquo;oczy=B6ci=B3y&rdquo; teren Polski z=
 ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiadomo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA w jaki=B6 op=
=F3r, to =B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=
=B1 skal=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6 skuteczne. </i></div>
<br><a href=3D"http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykl=
y-czlowiek.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.redakcja.pl/=
Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html</a><br><i>Machcewicz =
=B6wietnie
 pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne podzia=B3y sceny politycznej dezorgan=
izowa=B3y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=B3a infiltracja =B6rodowi=
sk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej strony, na czym polega=B3a=
 zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy obozem demokrat=F3w, sanacj=B1 i narodowcami &=
ndash; rywalizacja, kt=F3ra prowadzi=B3a do zbrodni i samos=B1d=F3w.<br>
</i><a href=3D"http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_hi=
storie_polski_od_nowa.htm" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ni=
niwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm</a=
><br>

<div><i><font face=3D"Arial"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family=
: Arial;">A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? </span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></i>=
</div>
<i><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><font face=3D"Arial=
">Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich =
w=B3adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=B3ywy. Wykorzystywali =
to, =BFe AK z czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemi=
e ostatecznie nie podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zgodnych z niemieckimi =
interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja &quot;Burza&q=
uot; z powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko jedna =
strona - Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 pytanie, czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, a je=
=BFeli tak, to w jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na to, =BFe Warszawa akurat 1=
 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie mog=B3a=
by si=EA okaza=E6 szokuj=B1ca.
 </font></span></i><br>
<div><br><br>&quot;They just urged people to leave their houses, and these =
stupid Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault.&quot;<b=
r></div>Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn=
 with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don&=
#39;t even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance. <br>

<div><br>&nbsp;&quot;And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole&quot; </di=
v>
<div>I am a Pole not a<i> kresowiak </i>who is more interested in dreams of=
 owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being un=
der Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in m=
udflats of Kresy, rather&nbsp; about good of Poland. Currently I can think =
of no other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Pol=
ish state the <i>kresowiacy. </i>The support they receive from Putin and th=
e amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they working for-ev=
en if they are as Lenin put it &quot;useful idiots&quot;.<br>
So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to <i>kresowiak</i> if tha=
t&#39;s what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other=
 Poles just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their =
game. The kresowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people a=
nd Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once o=
pressed or dreaming
 about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.<br></div><br>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<div>&quot;Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the =
Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; K=
atowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;an=
d still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Sl=
aughter, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons t=
o be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz,=
 and&nbsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities=
 became part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the mi=
nority as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.&quot;<br>
<br></div>Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to =
which Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no =
matter how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not =
Polish but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.<br>
<br><br></div>
<div>&quot;With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse th=
e killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale&quot;<br></div>Li=
kewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.=
=20
<div><br><br>&quot;What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian state=
d that the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pa=
ck the stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any=
 better? Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the =
Latvians from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them t=
o Siberia?&quot;<br>
<br></div>Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in Vo=
lhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.<br><br><br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.<=
/div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </div=
>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</di=
v>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the Nazi s=
laughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowic=
e and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and stil=
l these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughte=
r, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be b=
itter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&n=
bsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities becam=
e part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority=
 as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</div>

<div><br>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br></div></div>
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