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From: PetersJV@aol.com
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:31:04 EDT
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	Content preview:  I agree on the nav box, but it's ultimately premature
	(as much as I agree with it completely!). We need to come up with an
	approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of the cores of the issue: that
	Soviet archives are "open" does not mean they contain the facts. Rather
	than shedding light on the past, these archives need the same degree of
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Historical revisionists navibox?
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	Content preview:  I agree on the nav box, but it's ultimately premature
	(as much as I agree with it completely!). We need to come up with an
	approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of the cores of the issue: that
	Soviet archives are "open" does not mean they contain the facts. Rather
	than shedding light on the past, these archives need the same degree of
	knowledgeable interpretation based on verifiable events as some Pravda
	article from the 40's and 50's. [...] 
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I agree on the nav box, but it's ultimately premature (as much as I agree  
with it completely!).
 
We need to come up with an approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of the  
cores of the issue: that Soviet archives are "open" does not mean  they 
contain the facts. Rather than shedding light on the past,  these archives need 
the same degree of knowledgeable interpretation based on  verifiable events 
as some Pravda article from the 40's and 50's.
 
Unfortunately, scholars are still rushing to and parroting archives (both  
Nazi for Holocaust, Soviet for the entire era) as finally revealing the 
"facts."  We can't call Dyukov a "revisionist" if he's only "reporting" the 
"facts" in the  finally released or not open to everyone, here's privileged 
information,  "archives". If Dyukov states something that's an interpretation  
not in an archive, we can tag him for it. If he has his bases  covered, and 
believe me, he does, we can't touch him more than what the article  contains 
now. I first read through his drivel (via machine translation) some  years 
ago, look also for my Dyukov interchange with Fkriuk 
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6)  two  years ago, and I've heard a number of his spots on Russia  
Today. (Sorry to appear to be the devil's advocate here, but  I've debated 
the Maucos and Vlad Federovs enough to know what we can make  stick...)
 
Here's the problem, and I'll put it in terms of another issue I've been  
involved in:
    *   some scholar quotes a (lying) Nazi archive on locals bludgeoning 
their  Jewish neighbors (or "leaked" news report through Sweden, a known  
conduit)--there is German correspondence on specific incidents which  
contradicts the "official" accounts--aside from the usual photograph of true  
collaborators or drunks in uniforms with the directing Nazi officers  accidentally 
left in the picture due to poor framing (damn 95% of field of  view 
rangefinder cameras!)--the Soviet derivative, "Daugavas Vanagi, Who Are  They?," is 
still alive and well and stated to be largely verified by respected  scholars 
like David Cesarani 
    *   some scholar quotes a (lying) Soviet archive on deportees riding 
away to  their new lives on coach trains with three square meals a day and 
attentive  medical care
We can't touch Dyukov until we can call his sources, the  archives, into 
question with more than "the Estonians say." And for that we  need scholarly 
sources, otherwise any work we do will get rightly  deleted by even the 
totally uninvolved as WP:OR. Worse, with the "opening" of  archives, even a 
reputable article on the details of the Estonian deportations  is now open to 
attack by the cabal by inserting "== According to previously  sealed Soviet 
archives==", implying "facts", which is far different than  the cabals' only 
prior choice, that being "==Official Russian  position==", which can't hold 
much more water than "POV".
 
I'm sorry to say that this is how big the nut is that we must crack, but it 
 is. For my part, once I'm head above water, I am slowly going to start 
working  through books on Latvia/Holocaust/Nazis/neo-Nazis to compare sections 
of the  "truth" about Latvians to the facts, that will be a project for 
LOBH.ORG  (Library of Baltic Heritage).
 
P.S., I've also registered "LEEH.ORG" (Library of Eastern European  
Heritage) in reserve, and my other site on Transnistria et al. has been  quiet, 
have had no time, "AFGPI.ORG"--if folks would like to submit materials or  well 
researched commentary there, please Email me. (And for the really  
motivated, I long ago registered "TRANSNISTRIANVOICE.ORG" but if anyone wants to  
work on that, it will need to likely be in the fall.)
 
Since WP more and more relies on only what you can find on the Internet  
(IMHO, ultimately dooming it to drivel, but another topic) because POV pushers 
 insist on easily verifiable sources, the best service I can personally 
provide  is to scan, upload, and/or comment on not-easily-found materials which 
can then  be used for reference--it's something I'm very good at. For 
example, I have a  monograph published by the Soviet information service on how 
they were forced to  take action in the Baltics for their own protection, 
from before the  Nazi invasion. And an article from the weekly radio listings 
in Riga on an  incident of a Russian submarine attacking the evil Finns for 
the glory of Stalin  and Russia.
 
As you've likely figured out by now, I don't shy from the front lines, but  
working as a team with some division of labor, I'm cautiously confident we 
can  make steady progress. Patience and the (verifiable) facts are on our  
side.
 
/Peters
 
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814855x1201410739/aol?red
ir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=A
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16788" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY=
: Arial" 
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Dr=
ole_document 
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>I agree on the nav box, but it's ultimately premature (as much as I=
 agree 
with it completely!).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>We need to come up with an approach, article, etc. that cuts to one=
 of the 
cores of the issue: <STRONG><U>that Soviet archives are "open" does not me=
an 
they contain the facts</U></STRONG>. Rather than shedding light on the pas=
t, 
these archives need the same degree of knowledgeable interpretation based=
 on 
verifiable events as some <EM>Pravda</EM> article from the 40's and 50's.<=
/DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Unfortunately, scholars are still rushing to and parroting archives=
 (both 
Nazi for Holocaust, Soviet for the entire era) as finally revealing the "f=
acts." 
We can't call Dyukov a "revisionist" if he's only "reporting" the "facts"=
 in the 
finally released or not open to everyone, here's privileged information,=
 
"archives". If Dyukov states something that's an <EM>interpretation</EM>=
 
<STRONG>not</STRONG> in an archive, we can tag him for it. If he has his=
 bases 
covered, and believe me, he does, we can't touch him more than what the ar=
ticle 
contains now. I first read through his drivel (via machine translation) so=
me 
years ago, look also for my Dyukov interchange with Fkriuk&nbsp;<A 
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6">http://en.w=
ikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6</A>&nbsp;two 
years ago,&nbsp;and I've heard a number of his spots on Russia 
Today.&nbsp;(Sorry to&nbsp;appear to&nbsp;be the&nbsp;devil's advocate her=
e, but 
I've debated the Maucos and Vlad Federovs enough to know what we can make=
 
stick...)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here's the problem, and I'll put it in terms of another issue I've be=
en 
involved in:</DIV>
<UL>
  <LI>some scholar quotes a (lying) Nazi archive on locals bludgeoning the=
ir 
  Jewish neighbors (or "leaked" news report through Sweden, a known 
  conduit)--there is German correspondence on specific incidents which 
  contradicts the "official" accounts--aside from the usual photograph of=
 true 
  collaborators or&nbsp;drunks in uniforms with the directing Nazi officer=
s 
  accidentally left in the picture due to poor framing (damn 95% of field=
 of 
  view rangefinder cameras!)--the Soviet derivative, "Daugavas Vanagi, Who=
 Are 
  They?," is still alive and well and stated to be largely verified by res=
pected 
  scholars like David Cesarani</LI>
  <LI>some scholar quotes a (lying) Soviet archive on deportees riding awa=
y to 
  their new lives on coach trains with three square meals a day and attent=
ive 
  medical care</LI></UL>
<DIV>We can't touch Dyukov until we can call his sources, the 
archives,&nbsp;into question with more than "the Estonians say." And for=
 that we 
need <U>scholarly sources</U>, otherwise any work we do&nbsp;will get righ=
tly 
deleted by even the totally uninvolved as WP:OR. Worse, with the "opening"=
 of 
archives, even a reputable article on the details of the Estonian deportat=
ions 
is now open to attack by the cabal by inserting "=3D=3D According to previ=
ously 
sealed Soviet archives=3D=3D", implying "facts", which is far different&nb=
sp;than 
the cabals' only prior choice,&nbsp;that being&nbsp;"=3D=3DOfficial Russia=
n 
position=3D=3D", which can't hold much more water than "POV".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I'm sorry to say that this is how big the nut is that we must crack,=
 but it 
is. For my part, once I'm head above water, I am slowly going to start wor=
king 
through books on Latvia/Holocaust/Nazis/neo-Nazis to compare sections of=
 the 
"truth" about Latvians to the facts, that will be a project for LOBH.ORG=
 
(Library of Baltic Heritage).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>P.S., I've also registered "LEEH.ORG" (Library of Eastern European 
Heritage) in reserve, and my other site on Transnistria et al.&nbsp;has be=
en 
quiet, have had no time, "AFGPI.ORG"--if folks would like to submit materi=
als or 
well researched commentary there, please Email me. (And for the really 
motivated, I long ago registered "TRANSNISTRIANVOICE.ORG" but if anyone wa=
nts to 
work on that, it will need to likely be in the fall.)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Since WP more and more relies on only what you can find on the Intern=
et 
(IMHO, ultimately dooming it to drivel, but another topic) because POV pus=
hers 
insist on easily verifiable sources, the best service I can personally pro=
vide 
is to scan, upload, and/or comment on not-easily-found materials which can=
 then 
be used for reference--it's something I'm very good at. For example, I hav=
e a 
monograph published by the Soviet information service on how they were for=
ced to 
take action in the Baltics for their own protection, from <EM>before</EM>=
 the 
Nazi invasion. And an article from the weekly radio listings in Riga on an=
 
incident of a Russian submarine attacking the evil Finns for the glory of=
 Stalin 
and Russia.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As you've likely figured out by now, I don't shy from the front lines=
, but 
working as a team with some division of labor, I'm cautiously confident we=
 can 
make steady progress. <STRONG><U>Patience and the (verifiable) facts are=
 on our 
side.</U></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>/Peters</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt=
 arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top:10px"/><B>A Good Credit Score=
 is 700 or Above. <A HREF=3Dhttp://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x122081=
4855x1201410739/aol?redir=3Dhttp&#58;&#47;&#47;www.freecreditreport.com&#4=
7;pm&#47;default.aspx&#63;sc=3D668072&#38;hmpgID=3D62&#38;bcd=3DAprilfoote=
r426NO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!</A></B></font></DIV></BODY></HTML=
>

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