X-From_: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net Thu Jun 11 19:19:19 2009
Return-Path: <folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <927742.99207.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <927742.99207.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:19:05 +0300
Message-ID: <f826636f0906111019u569f3705t570d3f6089a71fa@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
X-Spam_score: 0.2
X-Spam_score_int: 2
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software,
	running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or
	label similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  My point about dilution is, that unless you go all the
	way and mass-dilute with hundreds of thousands (which is totally out of
	the question), it won't work. Sending uneducated workers as Ceausescu
	did at best leads to the Magyarization of those individuals over 2-3
	generations. The best is to integrate Hungarians through culture, open
	society and economic cooperation, and convincing Hungarians in Romania
	that there is no shame in being bilingual and they are not becoming
	"bozgor"s * because of that. Also to convince them there is no shame in
	remembering Szekely's both heritages - Hungarian and Romanian, doesn't
	matter the proportions of those heritages, just as Americans are not
	ashamed to have 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of that or that heritage. Hence I
	support that Harghita and Covasna counties would not contain
	unnaturally
	Romaian villages like those in Toplita-Borsec area of northern Harghita
	and Intorsatura Buzaului area in southern Covasna. Those areas, IMHO,
	should revert to Mures and Brasov counties. Whether there are 85%
	Hungarians (now) or 95% if those villages are transfered in Harghita
	wouldn't change much, IMHO. For Covasna, it would be 73% changed to
	about 80%. On the contrary, living in a Hungarian-homogeneous county
	would inspire them to learn more about Romanian culture, without the
	threat of losing their own. But I don't support Harghita county to have
	a more special status than any other county in Romania. Just as in the
	rest of Transylvania, there are some Hungarians in the cities, while the
	countryside is Romanian, in the Szekely land there would be Romanians
	mostly in the cities (Mercurea-Ciuc, Sfatu-Gheorghe, Covasna the city)
	and the countryside Hungarian. Hungarians won't mind having some nice
	Romanian churches and monasteries in the countryside of Szekely land
	that improve the architecture but bring only dozens of civilized
	Romanians that are no threat to Hungarians. *"bozgor" is a Hungarian
	term that means "person without country". It is highly pejorative.
	[...] Content analysis details:   (0.2 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ----------------------
	--------------------------------------------------
	-2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST      RBL: Envelope sender in
	postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.1 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on 
	pakkun.mirky.net
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_05,
	DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.7-deb
Subject: Re: [WPM] EU elections
X-BeenThere: folks@wikipedometer.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Id: Wikipedia statistics <folks.wikipedometer.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Help: <mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4701005796291606435=="
Mime-version: 1.0
Sender: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
Errors-To: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
X-Spam_score: 0.2
X-Spam_score_int: 2
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
	similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  My point about dilution is, that unless you go all the
	way and mass-dilute with hundreds of thousands (which is totally out of
	the question), it won't work. Sending uneducated workers as Ceausescu
	did at best leads to the Magyarization of those individuals over 2-3
	generations. The best is to integrate Hungarians through culture, open
	society and economic cooperation, and convincing Hungarians in Romania
	that there is no shame in being bilingual and they are not becoming
	"bozgor"s * because of that. Also to convince them there is no shame in
	remembering Szekely's both heritages - Hungarian and Romanian, doesn't
	matter the proportions of those heritages, just as Americans are not
	ashamed to have 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of that or that heritage. Hence I
	support that Harghita and Covasna counties would not contain unnaturally
	Romaian villages like those in Toplita-Borsec area of northern Harghita
	and Intorsatura Buzaului area in southern Covasna. Those areas, IMHO,
	should revert to Mures and Brasov counties. Whether there are 85%
	Hungarians (now) or 95% if those villages are transfered in Harghita
	wouldn't change much, IMHO. For Covasna, it would be 73% changed to
	about 80%. On the contrary, living in a Hungarian-homogeneous county
	would inspire them to learn more about Romanian culture, without the
	threat of losing their own. But I don't support Harghita county to have
	a more special status than any other county in Romania. Just as in the
	rest of Transylvania, there are some Hungarians in the cities, while the
	countryside is Romanian, in the Szekely land there would be Romanians
	mostly in the cities (Mercurea-Ciuc, Sfatu-Gheorghe, Covasna the city)
	and the countryside Hungarian. Hungarians won't mind having some nice
	Romanian churches and monasteries in the countryside of Szekely land
	that improve the architecture but bring only dozens of civilized
	Romanians that are no threat to Hungarians. *"bozgor" is a Hungarian
	term that means "person without country". It is highly pejorative. [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (0.2 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
	-2.6 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST      RBL: Envelope sender in
	postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.1 AWL                    AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list

--===============4701005796291606435==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c599090133ec046c15ca5e

--001636c599090133ec046c15ca5e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My point about dilution is, that unless you go all the way and mass-dilute
with hundreds of thousands (which is totally out of the question), it won't
work. Sending uneducated workers as Ceausescu did at best leads to the
Magyarization of those individuals over 2-3 generations. The best is to
integrate Hungarians through culture, open society and economic cooperation=
,
and convincing Hungarians in Romania that there is no shame in being
bilingual and they are not becoming "bozgor"s * because of that. Also to
convince them there is no shame in remembering Szekely's both heritages -
Hungarian and Romanian, doesn't matter the proportions of those heritages,
just as Americans are not ashamed to have 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of that or that
heritage. Hence I support that Harghita and Covasna counties would not
contain unnaturally Romaian villages like those in Toplita-Borsec area of
northern Harghita and Intorsatura Buzaului area in southern Covasna. Those
areas, IMHO, should revert to Mures and Brasov counties. Whether there are
85% Hungarians (now) or 95% if those villages are transfered in Harghita
wouldn't change much, IMHO. For Covasna, it would be 73% changed to about
80%. On the contrary, living in a Hungarian-homogeneous county would inspir=
e
them to learn more about Romanian culture, without the threat of losing
their own. But I don't support Harghita county to have a more special statu=
s
than any other county in Romania. Just as in the rest of Transylvania, ther=
e
are some Hungarians in the cities, while the countryside is Romanian, in th=
e
Szekely land there would be Romanians mostly in the cities (Mercurea-Ciuc,
Sfatu-Gheorghe, Covasna the city) and the countryside Hungarian. Hungarians
won't mind having some nice Romanian churches and monasteries in the
countryside of Szekely land that improve the architecture but bring only
dozens of civilized Romanians that are no threat to Hungarians.
*"bozgor" is a Hungarian term that means "person without country". It is
highly pejorative.


> One example is the mining town of B=E3lan, Harghita: 4.3% Romanian in 195=
6,
> now 64.8%, but still totally surrounded by Szekely villages.
>

Yes, I know, but that is a special case. As far as I know that is the only
such case in the counties inhabited by Szekelies. Interestingly that the
town is at the border with Neamt county, but you cannot transfer it because
it's a "mountain wall" on that side.


>
> (When Szekely speak Romanian, you can tell it's a foreign language for th=
em
> because they lack the distinct Transylvanian accent. Even Laszlo Borbely,
> who grew up in increasingly Romanian Targu Mures - I saw a TV interview w=
ith
> him the other day and his Romanian is halting at best.
>

Rural Szekely - yes. But Laszlo Borbely speaks perfect Romanian. He only
pretends not to know it. If you watch his accent over the years, you'll see
how it be comes forcibly stronger and stronger. He wants to project a
certain image   in his community, worried that more nationalistic persons
would blame him for forgetting about Szekelies. Once on a Romanian news
channel I saw him getting excited pretending that one of the speakers
offended Hungarians. They had to calm him and explain word by word until he
admitted "ok, I misunderstood". An experienced politician like Borbely
should know better than such kind of tricks. In that instance nobody had an=
y
dis-respect towards Hungarians, on the contrary those were very educated
people. But Borbely preferred to project on his follow Szekelies the efect
of "you see what kind of Romanian nationalist pressure I have to face every
day on my own..." I believe he feels the pressure from new younger people
like Sasz Jeno, mayor of Odorhei, who simulataneously are regarded as "good
Hungarian nationalists" in their communisty, and have excellent relations
with Romanian "good nationalist" politicians, while Borbely has neither.



> But Iuliu Winkler, who grew up in Hunedoara, knows great Romanian.
> Incidentally, that reminds me: one sees some Hungarians with German names=
,
> another example being the bishop of Satu Mare, Jen=F5 Sch=F6nberger. That=
's
> because, outside the Saxon areas and the Banat, Catholic Germans were eve=
n
> more liable to be Magyarized. For instance, Cluj/Kolozsv=E1r/Klausenburg
> started out as a German town, but it was too far away from the Sibiu area=
 to
> maintain a viable German identity, and early on (14th century) became
> Hungarian in character. An exception to this was Bistrita/Bistritz and
> surroundings, which retained a strong German (and, not coincidentally,
> Lutheran) presence despite being very far from the other Saxon seats.
>

There were almost no Hungarians in Bistrita even in 19th century, just as i=
n
Sibiu.

User:Fz22 is a Hungarian from somewhere around Satu Mare who has German
roots if you go back 3-5 generations. There was a small German community in
that area which was forcibly or not forcibly Magyarized at the end of 19th
century.

Germans in Transylvania (Saxons and Donauschwaben) were pro-Romanian in 191=
8
b/c of those Magyarization policies.

I totally agree that bringing Romanians from outside Transylvania,
especially poorly educated ones, only exacerbates the problem.

And yes, i forgot to tell about Hungarian Jews in Transylavania before WWII=
.
You are totally right.


>
>
> About the map, you're right the author could simply have been misinformed=
.
> But I checked out Nicolae Iorga's interesting "Neamul Romanesc in Ardeal =
si
> Tara Ungureasca la 1906" and he too refers to Sfantu Gheorghe as
> "Sepsi-S=E2n-Georgiu". Maybe the name just changed.
>

I agree, they should have left the traditional "S=E2n-Georgiu" (without Sep=
si,
which is clearly a Maryarization effect), or even better "S=E2ngeorgiu" (as=
 it
is for most villages in the area) without trying to "civilize" it into
"Sf=E2ntu Gheorghe".

--001636c599090133ec046c15ca5e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My point about dilution is, that unless you go all the way and mass-dilute =
with hundreds of thousands (which is totally out of the question), it won&#=
39;t work. Sending uneducated workers as Ceausescu did at best leads to the=
 Magyarization of those individuals over 2-3 generations. The best is to in=
tegrate Hungarians through culture, open society and economic cooperation, =
and convincing Hungarians in Romania that there is no shame in being biling=
ual and they are not becoming &quot;bozgor&quot;s * because of that. Also t=
o convince them there is no shame in remembering Szekely&#39;s both heritag=
es - Hungarian and Romanian, doesn&#39;t matter the proportions of those he=
ritages, just as Americans are not ashamed to have 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of that=
 or that heritage. Hence I support that Harghita and Covasna counties would=
 not contain unnaturally Romaian villages like those in Toplita-Borsec area=
 of northern Harghita and Intorsatura Buzaului area in southern Covasna. Th=
ose areas, IMHO, should revert to Mures and Brasov counties. Whether there =
are 85% Hungarians (now) or 95% if those villages are transfered in Harghit=
a wouldn&#39;t change much, IMHO. For Covasna, it would be 73% changed to a=
bout 80%. On the contrary, living in a Hungarian-homogeneous county would i=
nspire them to learn more about Romanian culture, without the threat of los=
ing their own. But I don&#39;t support Harghita county to have a more speci=
al status than any other county in Romania. Just as in the rest of Transylv=
ania, there are some Hungarians in the cities, while the countryside is Rom=
anian, in the Szekely land there would be Romanians mostly in the cities (M=
ercurea-Ciuc, Sfatu-Gheorghe, Covasna the city) and the countryside Hungari=
an. Hungarians won&#39;t mind having some nice Romanian churches and monast=
eries in the countryside of Szekely land that improve the architecture but =
bring only dozens of civilized Romanians that are no threat to Hungarians.<=
div>
<br></div><div>*&quot;bozgor&quot; is a Hungarian term that means &quot;per=
son without country&quot;. It is highly pejorative.<br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"=
>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td vali=
gn=3D"top" style=3D"font:inherit"><div><br></div><div>One example is the mi=
ning town of=A0B=E3lan, Harghita: 4.3% Romanian in 1956, now 64.8%, but sti=
ll totally surrounded by Szekely villages.</div>
</td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I know, but=
 that is a special case. As far as I know that is the only such case in the=
 counties inhabited by Szekelies. Interestingly that the town is at the bor=
der with Neamt county, but you cannot transfer it because it&#39;s a &quot;=
mountain wall&quot; on that side.</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cell=
padding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"font:inhe=
rit"><div><div>
<br></div><div>(When Szekely speak Romanian, you can tell it&#39;s a foreig=
n language for them because they lack the distinct Transylvanian accent. Ev=
en Laszlo Borbely, who grew up in increasingly Romanian Targu Mures - I saw=
 a TV interview with him the other day and his Romanian is halting at best.=
 </div>
</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Rural Szek=
ely - yes. But Laszlo Borbely speaks perfect Romanian. He only pretends not=
 to know it. If you watch his accent over the years, you&#39;ll see how it =
be comes forcibly stronger and stronger. He wants to project a certain imag=
e =A0 in his community, worried that more nationalistic persons would blame=
 him for forgetting about Szekelies. Once on a Romanian news channel I saw =
him getting excited pretending that one of the speakers offended Hungarians=
. They had to calm him and explain word by word until he admitted &quot;ok,=
 I misunderstood&quot;. An experienced politician like Borbely should know =
better than such kind of tricks. In that instance nobody had any dis-respec=
t towards Hungarians, on the contrary those were very educated people. But =
Borbely preferred to project on his follow Szekelies the efect of &quot;you=
 see what kind of Romanian nationalist pressure I have to face every day on=
 my own...&quot; I believe he feels the pressure from new younger people li=
ke Sasz Jeno, mayor of Odorhei, who simulataneously are regarded as &quot;g=
ood Hungarian nationalists&quot; in their communisty, and have excellent re=
lations with Romanian &quot;good nationalist&quot; politicians, while Borbe=
ly has neither.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspa=
cing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" sty=
le=3D"font:inherit">
<div><div>But Iuliu Winkler, who grew up in Hunedoara, knows great Romanian=
. Incidentally, that reminds me: one sees some Hungarians
 with German names, another example being the bishop of Satu Mare,=A0Jen=F5=
 Sch=F6nberger. That&#39;s because, outside the Saxon areas and the Banat, =
Catholic Germans were even more liable to be Magyarized. For instance, Cluj=
/Kolozsv=E1r/Klausenburg started out as a German town, but it was too far a=
way from the Sibiu area to maintain a viable German identity, and early on =
(14th century) became Hungarian in character. An exception to this was Bist=
rita/Bistritz and surroundings, which retained a strong German (and, not co=
incidentally, Lutheran) presence despite being very far from the other Saxo=
n seats.</div>
</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There were=
 almost no Hungarians in Bistrita even in 19th century, just as in Sibiu.=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>User:Fz22 is a Hungarian from somewhere around=
 Satu Mare who has German roots if you go back 3-5 generations. There was a=
 small German community in that area which was forcibly or not forcibly Mag=
yarized at the end of 19th century.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Germans in Transylvania (Saxons and Donauschwaben) were=
 pro-Romanian in 1918 b/c of those Magyarization policies.</div><div>=A0</d=
iv><div>I totally agree that bringing Romanians from outside Transylvania, =
especially poorly educated ones, only exacerbates the problem.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>And yes, i forgot to tell about Hungarian Jews in Trans=
ylavania before WWII. You are totally right.=A0</div><div>=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td =
valign=3D"top" style=3D"font:inherit"><div><div><br></div><div>About the ma=
p, you&#39;re right the author could simply have been misinformed. But I ch=
ecked out Nicolae Iorga&#39;s interesting &quot;Neamul Romanesc in Ardeal s=
i Tara Ungureasca la 1906&quot;=A0and he too refers to Sfantu Gheorghe as &=
quot;Sepsi-S=E2n-Georgiu&quot;. Maybe the name just changed.=A0</div>
</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree, t=
hey should have left the traditional &quot;<span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"font-size: 16px; ">S=E2n-Georgiu&quot; (without Sepsi, which is c=
learly a Maryarization effect), or even better &quot;S=E2ngeorgiu&quot; (as=
 it is for most villages in the area)=A0without trying to &quot;civilize&qu=
ot; it into &quot;Sf=E2ntu Gheorghe&quot;.</span></div>
<div>=A0</div></div></div>

--001636c599090133ec046c15ca5e--


--===============4701005796291606435==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks

--===============4701005796291606435==--


