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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:43:23 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in
	the Expulsions article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source-
	Woogie was nice enough to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and
	send it to me. I expect Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a
	revert or two of him, to show that he is editing against consensus and
	against sources would be very helpful. Don't go crazy though - 1 revert
	with some discussion. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found information
	about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germans
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	Content preview:  I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in
	the Expulsions article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source-
	Woogie was nice enough to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and
	send it to me. I expect Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a
	revert or two of him, to show that he is editing against consensus and
	against sources would be very helpful. Don't go crazy though - 1 revert
	with some discussion. [...] 
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I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in the Expulsions
article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source- Woogie was nice enough
to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and send it to me. I expect
Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a revert or two of him, to show
that he is editing against consensus and against sources would be very
helpful. Don't go crazy though - 1 revert with some discussion.

Radek


2009/7/29 Jack <jacurek@yahoo.com>

> Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I'm away on the trip and can=
't
> be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.
> Thanks again.
> Jacek
>
> --- On *Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found
> information about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germans
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM
>
>
> Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as expelled=
:
> http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf
>
> Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):
> *Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99
> dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =C5=BB=
ydzi oraz inne
> ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przypadki=
.*
>
>
> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.c=
om<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
> > napisa=C5=82:
>
>> Hi Radek,
>>
>> Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ?
>> Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
>> Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english
>> translation:
>> http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291
>>
>> *This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being
>> well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, =
for
>> example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische V=
erluste im
>> Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):
>>
>>   "The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the
>> immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, an=
d
>> similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians o=
r
>> bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the eve=
nts
>> historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches
>> Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical search s=
ervice did a
>> lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitative=
ly
>> assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result =
can
>> be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been ki=
lled
>> during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective
>> territories who had died during military service.
>>
>>    These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an
>> integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not o=
f a
>> counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population
>> balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of =
the
>> expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore =
be
>> assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In=
 the
>> last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned,
>> as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number o=
f
>> victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also
>> an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of th=
e
>> previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always =
be
>> said, however, that the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that the death of the=
se people
>> had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
>> *
>> I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2 mili=
on
>> mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost the
>> article where it was written.
>>
>> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com>>
>> napisa=C5=82:
>>
>> > Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so could you look at
>> > Skapperod's latest argument
>> > [
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_I=
I#Overmans
>> ]?
>> > He's trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million figure
>> has to
>> > be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state that
>> this is
>> > only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying to ta=
ke
>> one
>> > single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all there is to
>> it.
>> >
>> > Radek
>> >
>> >
>> > 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.=
com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by politicians :
>> >>
>> >> http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html
>> >> "Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia i w=
ysiedlenia do swoich
>> >> dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i licz=
by, kt=C3=B3re dla
>> >> nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne"
>> >>
>> >> Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be better
>> >> if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that knows
>> >> Polish and good add this source.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>> >:
>> >> > I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and if th=
e
>> >> > numbers
>> >> > were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article.
>> >> >
>> >> > Here is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help you an=
d
>> can
>> >> > be
>> >> > added as well to the sources needed
>> >> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> >> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> > folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfo=
lks@wikipedometer.net>
> http://wikipedometer..net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks<http://wikipedom=
eter.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in the Expulsions articl=
e, based on the Overmans and the Haar source- Woogie was nice enough to sca=
n in an Overmans ref from the library and send it to me. I expect Skapperod=
 will start reverting it soon and a revert or two of him, to show that he i=
s editing against consensus and against sources would be very helpful. Don&=
#39;t go crazy though - 1 revert with some discussion.<br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/29 Jack <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jacurek@yahoo.com">jacurek@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid r=
gb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I&#39;m away on the trip =
and can&#39;t be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.</div>
<div>Thanks again.</div>
<div>Jacek<br><br>--- On <b>Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b=
> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molo=
bus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: =
[WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found information about Jews =
killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germans<br>
To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedome=
ter.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>Date: Tuesday=
, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
<div>Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as expel=
led:<br><a href=3D"http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf" rel=3D"no=
follow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf</a>=
<br>
<br>Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):<br><i>Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z w=
yp=C4=99<br>dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemie=
ccy =C5=BBydzi oraz inne<br>ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako ni=
ewyja=C5=9Bnione przypadki.</i><br>
<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molob=
o Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=C5=82:<br>

<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quote">Hi Radek, <br><br=
>Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ? A=
nyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying. <br>
Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english trans=
lation:<br><a href=3D"http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.p=
hp?t=3D6291</a><br>
<br><i>This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being=
 well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, fo=
r example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische Ve=
rluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation)=
:<br>
<br>=C2=A0 &quot;The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germa=
ns in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldi=
ers, and similar efforts were made
 to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A=
 huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the =
Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 =
associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial s=
upport of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those=
 expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the co=
nclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and exp=
ulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died d=
uring military service.<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0These casualty figures, however, which for decades have be=
en an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result no=
t of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a populat=
ion balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of=
 the expulsion territories could not be
 clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their l=
ives in the course of these events. In the last years,<b> however, these st=
atements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of=
 reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been hig=
her than 500,000 persons</b> - which is also an unimaginable number of vict=
ims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the =
hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that<b> the bala=
nce didn=E2=80=99t say that the death of these people had been proven, but =
only that their fate could not be clarified.&quot;</b><br>
</i><br>I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2=
 milion mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost=
 the article where it was written.<br><br>W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=
=BCytkownik radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82:
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>&gt; Hey Molobo, my German&#39;s next to non existent so could you=
 look at<br>&gt; Skapperod&#39;s latest argument<br>&gt; [<a href=3D"http:/=
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overman=
s" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Exp=
ulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans</a>]?<br>
&gt; He&#39;s trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million fig=
ure has to<br>&gt; be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearl=
y state that this is<br>&gt; only part of the picture. It looks to me like =
Skapperod&#39;s trying to take one<br>
&gt; single adjustment out of many and pretend that that&#39;s all there is=
 to it.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Radek<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molo=
bo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gm=
ail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Hi Jacurek-a clear statement
 that numbers are used by politicians :<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"=
http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html" rel=3D"nofollow" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html</a><br>&=
gt;&gt; &quot;Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dze=
nia i wysiedlenia do swoich<br>
&gt;&gt; dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i l=
iczby, kt=C3=B3re dla<br>&gt;&gt; nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne&quot;<br>&gt;=
&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would=
 be better<br>&gt;&gt; if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other =
editor that knows<br>
&gt;&gt; Polish and good add this source.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc=
/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and=
 if the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;
 numbers<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Ge=
rmans article.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Here is a usefull source b=
y Polish historian that could help you and can<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; be<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; added as well to the sources needed<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=
=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofia=
ry.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; _____________________________________=
__________<br>&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.=
net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailm=
an/listinfo/folks</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
 _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Wikipedia statisti=
cs discussion list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">folks=
@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/l=
istinfo/folks</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br=
></div>
<br></div></div>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<div class=3D"im"><br><b=
r>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>Wikipedia statistic=
s discussion list<br><a href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><=
br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer..net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br=
></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>

      <br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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