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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:59:18 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Well i never had anything against writing about Polish
	history of those cities. It's just that I always remeber that they were
	still Ukrainian, Lithuanian, even if dominated by Polish culture due to
	course of history. Similiarily Wroc³aw or Gdańsk were dominated by
	German culture(of course methods and circumstances were different). "At
	the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically non-existent, as
	this city hardly had any ties with Poland" I am really saddened. They
	are several publications on Polish history of Szczecin and a whole book
	about the lively activity of Polish minority whose leader hoped that one
	day Szczecin will return to Poland. Writing an article about that is one
	of the tasks I set out to myself. The Polish history of Regained
	Territories is often today neglected, but it did exist as they were
	multiethnic areas. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory
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	Content preview:  Well i never had anything against writing about Polish
	history of those cities. It's just that I always remeber that they were
	still Ukrainian, Lithuanian, even if dominated by Polish culture due to
	course of history. Similiarily Wroc³aw or Gdańsk were dominated by
	German culture(of course methods and circumstances were different). "At
	the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically non-existent, as
	this city hardly had any ties with Poland" I am really saddened. They
	are several publications on Polish history of Szczecin and a whole book
	about the lively activity of Polish minority whose leader hoped that one
	day Szczecin will return to Poland. Writing an article about that is one
	of the tasks I set out to myself. The Polish history of Regained
	Territories is often today neglected, but it did exist as they were
	multiethnic areas. [...] 
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Well i never had anything against writing about Polish history of those
cities. It's just that I always remeber that they were still Ukrainian,
Lithuanian, even if dominated by Polish culture due to course of history.
Similiarily Wroc=B3aw or Gda=F1sk were dominated  by German culture(of cour=
se
methods and circumstances were different).
"At the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically non-existent, as
this city hardly had any ties with Poland"
I am really saddened.  They are several publications on Polish history of
Szczecin and a whole book about the lively activity of Polish minority whos=
e
leader hoped that one day Szczecin will return to Poland. Writing an articl=
e
about that is one of the tasks I set out to myself.
The Polish history of Regained Territories is often today neglected, but it
did exist as they were multiethnic areas.

"Vilnius and Lviv are a very important part of Polish history and tradition=
,
much more important than Wroclaw"
Well, let us agree to disagree on that then ;] I will just say that to me
Vilnius and Lviv are symbols of Poland's  wrong choices that led to our
disasters. That is I have nothing against writing about them by my fellow
countrymen. I just don't think it is worth the time or effort...

"Seems like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but describin=
g
Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect"
My impression is that knowledge of German atrocities is very much neglected
in modern times. For example while Katyn is often remembered you don't hear
much about Pia=B6nica, or Selbstschutz camps where much more people were
murdered. You also don't hear that in most of those cases Germans were neve=
r
sentenced or punished after the war. I guess it is connected to EU effort
for "harmonious coexistance"-not cenzorship but simply unwillgness of some
to write about things that will not serve further european integration.
Lately I realised that while our newspaper Wyborcza writes about old Soviet
emblems being returned to Russia or old members of regime continuing their
normall life, it almost never touches about similiar things in Germany.

2009/6/15 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>

>   Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do not really
> understand why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish history makes =
one
> a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one of 5 major centers o=
f
> Polish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). At the same tim=
e,
> Polish history of Szczecin is basically non-existent, as this city hardly
> had any ties with Poland. Vilnius and Lviv are a very important part of
> Polish history and tradition, much more important than Wroclaw, and one
> cannot really write about Poland without mentioning these two cities. It =
is
> impossible, just look at the list of famous Polish people from Lviv.
>
> Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. Seem=
s
> like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but describing
> Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect. This is not right, those
> events should be described, and I have a very strong opinion on it.
> Everybody knows about Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour (640 victims), but
> nobody knows about Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where more than 1000 Poles
> were murdered by axes in one day. Events like this have to be described, =
and
> writing about them does not make one a nationalist.
>
> A remark. In Opole there is an exhibition of photos of these crimes. One =
of
> the photos shows a man named Jozef Kilkarski from Poczapy, county Zlotow.
> The description says "Married to a Ukrainian woman, murdered by own son b=
y
> order of OUN/UIA, 1944".
>
> Tymek
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 6/14/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 11:48 AM
>
> The funny thing is that I am very opposed to the idea of Polish
> nationalism and actually tried to stay away from the Kresy topics, and
> the whole debates about Lviv, Vilnius which are core points of
> nationalism in Poland.
> My impression was that any mention of German war crimes Germany
> related facts(for example Herero Genocide) was categorised as
> expression 'Polish nationalism'.
> Likewise note that any information about Polish presence or history of
> areas that in the past became German is presented by German users such
> as Karasek or Skapperod as 'lies', 'communist propaganda' and 'Polish
> nationalism'.
>
> 2009/6/14 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/=
mc/compose?to=3Dpiokon@post.pl>
> >:
> > Miacek and his crime-fighting dog wrote:
> >> You seem to have rather well familiarized yourself with different
> >> types of German nationalist, Neo-Nazi, Holocaust denial accounts and
> >> similar trolls in Wiki. Do you happen to recall some Polish
> >> nationalists, too, whom you've encountered here in wiki?
> >
> > One editor who comes to mind as the best case study of true Polish
> > nationalist on en wiki is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krzyzowiec
> > He represented the Polish far right neo-Nazi/endencja fringe
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland) - pro-Radio
> > Maryja, pro-endecja*, anti-semitic, anti-liberal, etc. Due to the
> > extreme form of some of his edits, incivility and edit warring, he got =
a
> > 1-year ban that will expire in November.
> >
> > The pro-Silesia faction that Molobo mentioned is represented by
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LUCPOL
> > His English are poor, and hence he is not very active here.
> >
> > And then there is the infamous
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Serafin
> > but to be honest, I know little about him. He was never involved in
> > Polish community, and seems be content creating socks to edit war on
> > Copernicus and such. Still, due to his activity, he is somewhat known.
> > He was banned and discussed mostly without my knowledge (or regret),
> > which also proves the importance of being a part of a community/cabal i=
f
> > one wants to successfully edit controversial articles.
> >
> > Finally, it may be interesting to try to analyze why editors such as
> > Molobo, Halibutt (great loss to Wikipedia that he left...), or even
> > myself are being called by some "Polish nationalists". In particular,
> > our enemies seem to have successfully portrayed Molobo as a "Polish
> > nationalist"; before Molobo comes back to Wikipedia, it is imperative
> > that we figure out how this happened so that his new incarnation
> > (whether it is in a year or sooner) will not get the same label.
> >
> > *the endecja issue is one where I think we could, if needed, try to
> > create an impression of conflict among Polish wikipedians, as I know
> > some of us are pro-endecja and others are anti-endecja. But I don't see
> > much benefit from creating (an appearance of) such a conflict.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Piotr Konieczny
> >
> > "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
> > theory."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
folks@wikipedometer.net>
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfo=
lks@wikipedometer.net>
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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<div>Well i never had anything against writing about Polish history of thos=
e cities. It&#39;s just that I always remeber that they were still Ukrainia=
n, Lithuanian, even if dominated by Polish culture due to course of history=
. Similiarily Wroc=B3aw or Gda=F1sk were dominated=A0 by German culture(of =
course methods and circumstances were different).</div>

<div>&quot;At the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically non-ex=
istent, as this city hardly had any ties with Poland&quot;<br>I am really=
=A0saddened.=A0 They are several publications on Polish history of Szczecin=
 and a whole book about the lively activity of Polish minority whose leader=
 hoped that one day Szczecin will return to Poland. Writing an article abou=
t that is one of the tasks I set out to myself.</div>

<div>The Polish history of Regained Territories is often today neglected, b=
ut it did exist as they were multiethnic areas.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>&quot;Vilnius and Lviv are a very important part of Polish history and=
 tradition, much more important than Wroclaw&quot;<br>Well, let us agree to=
 disagree on that then ;] I will just say that to me Vilnius and Lviv are s=
ymbols of Poland&#39;s=A0 wrong choices that led to our disasters. That is =
I have nothing against writing about them by my fellow countrymen. I just d=
on&#39;t think it is worth the time or effort...</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>&quot;Seems like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but=
 describing Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect&quot;<br>My impre=
ssion is that knowledge of German atrocities is very much neglected in mode=
rn times. For example while Katyn is often remembered you don&#39;t hear mu=
ch about Pia=B6nica, or Selbstschutz camps where much more people were murd=
ered. You also don&#39;t hear that in most of those cases Germans were neve=
r sentenced or punished after the war. I guess it is connected to EU effort=
 for &quot;harmonious coexistance&quot;-not cenzorship but simply unwillgne=
ss of some to write about things that will not serve further european integ=
ration.<br>
Lately I realised that while our newspaper Wyborcza writes about old=A0Sovi=
et emblems=A0being returned to Russia or old=A0members of regime continuing=
 their normall life, it almost never touches about=A0similiar things in Ger=
many.<br>
=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/6/15 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">
<div>Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do not really unde=
rstand why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish history makes one a =
nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one of 5 major centers of Po=
lish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). At the same time, P=
olish history of Szczecin is basically non-existent, as this city hardly ha=
d any ties with Poland. Vilnius and Lviv are a very important part of Polis=
h history and tradition, much more important than Wroclaw, and one cannot r=
eally write about Poland without mentioning these two cities. It is impossi=
ble, just look at the list of famous Polish people from Lviv. </div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. S=
eems like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but describing =
Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect. This is not right, those eve=
nts should be described, and I have a very strong opinion on it. Everybody =
knows about Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour (640 victims), but nobody knows=
 about Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where more than 1000 Poles were murdered =
by axes in one day. Events like this have to be described, and writing abou=
t them does not make one a nationalist.</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>A remark. In Opole there is an exhibition of photos of these crimes. O=
ne of the photos shows a man named Jozef Kilkarski from Poczapy, county Zlo=
tow. The description says &quot;Married to a Ukrainian woman, murdered by o=
wn son=A0by order of OUN/UIA, 1944&quot;.=A0</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Tymek</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div><br>--- On <b>Sun, 6/14/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mol=
obus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<=
br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [WP=
M] More cabal theory<br>
To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedome=
ter.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>Date: Sunday,=
 June 14, 2009, 11:48 AM<br><br>
<div>The funny thing is that I am very opposed to the idea of Polish<br>nat=
ionalism and actually tried to stay away from the Kresy topics, and<br>the =
whole debates about Lviv, Vilnius which are core points of<br>nationalism i=
n Poland.<br>
My impression was that any mention of German war crimes Germany<br>related =
facts(for example Herero Genocide) was categorised as<br>expression &#39;Po=
lish nationalism&#39;.<br>Likewise note that any information about Polish p=
resence or history of<br>
areas that in the past became German is presented by German users such<br>a=
s Karasek or Skapperod as &#39;lies&#39;, &#39;communist propaganda&#39; an=
d &#39;Polish<br>nationalism&#39;.<br><br>2009/6/14 Piotr Konieczny &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpiokon@post.pl" targ=
et=3D"_blank">piokon@post.pl</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; Miacek and his crime-fighting dog wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; You seem to have =
rather well familiarized yourself with different<br>&gt;&gt; types of Germa=
n nationalist, Neo-Nazi, Holocaust denial accounts and<br>&gt;&gt; similar =
trolls in Wiki. Do you happen to recall some Polish<br>
&gt;&gt; nationalists, too, whom you&#39;ve encountered here in wiki?<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt; One editor who comes to mind as the best case study of true Poli=
sh<br>&gt; nationalist on en wiki is <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wik=
i/User:Krzyzowiec" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krzy=
zowiec</a><br>
&gt; He represented the Polish far right neo-Nazi/endencja fringe<br>&gt; (=
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland" target=
=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland</a>) - =
pro-Radio<br>
&gt; Maryja, pro-endecja*, anti-semitic, anti-liberal, etc. Due to the<br>&=
gt; extreme form of some of his edits, incivility and edit warring, he got =
a<br>&gt; 1-year ban that will expire in November.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The pro-=
Silesia faction that Molobo mentioned is represented by<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LUCPOL" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LUCPOL</a><br>&gt; His English are poor,=
 and hence he is not very active here.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; And then there is th=
e infamous<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Serafin" target=3D"_blank=
">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Serafin</a><br>&gt; but to be honest, I=
 know little about him. He was never involved in<br>&gt; Polish community, =
and seems be content creating socks to edit war on<br>
&gt; Copernicus and such. Still, due to his activity, he is somewhat known.=
<br>&gt; He was banned and discussed mostly without my knowledge (or regret=
),<br>&gt; which also proves the importance of being a part of a community/=
cabal if<br>
&gt; one wants to successfully edit controversial articles.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;=
 Finally, it may be interesting to try to analyze why editors such as<br>&g=
t; Molobo, Halibutt (great loss to Wikipedia that he left...), or even<br>
&gt; myself are being called by some &quot;Polish nationalists&quot;. In pa=
rticular,<br>&gt; our enemies seem to have successfully portrayed Molobo as=
 a &quot;Polish<br>&gt; nationalist&quot;; before Molobo comes back to Wiki=
pedia, it is imperative<br>
&gt; that we figure out how this happened so that his new incarnation<br>&g=
t; (whether it is in a year or sooner) will not get the same label.<br>&gt;=
<br>&gt; *the endecja issue is one where I think we could, if needed, try t=
o<br>
&gt; create an impression of conflict among Polish wikipedians, as I know<b=
r>&gt; some of us are pro-endecja and others are anti-endecja. But I don&#3=
9;t see<br>&gt; much benefit from creating (an appearance of) such a confli=
ct.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; --<br>&gt; Piotr Konieczny<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &quot;The p=
roblem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in<br>&gt; th=
eory.&quot;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; _______________________________________________=
<br>
&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://us.mc32=
8.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cg=
i-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cg=
i-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
&gt;<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Wikipedia st=
atistics discussion list<br><a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/co=
mpose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.n=
et</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>=
</div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br>______________________=
_________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br><a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedomet=
er.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/=
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cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
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