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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:46:43 -0400
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From: Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: Agree. This is actually a good argument why we should
	NOT have "allegations" in titles. For example, I do not see why having
	hired political commentators/contributors on opposition web sites like
	grani.ru or in WP contradicts any Russian or international laws. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] More re Offliner....
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Agree. This is actually a good argument why we should NOT have "allegations"
in titles. For example, I do not see why having hired political
commentators/contributors on opposition web sites like  grani.ru or in WP
contradicts any Russian or international laws.



On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:59 PM, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:

>  About... (my talk)
>
> [[Wikipedia:NAME#Controversial_name]]s states that "allegation" ''should be
> avoided in a title unless the article concerns charges in a legal case or
> accusations of illegality under civil, criminal or international law which
> have not yet been proven in a court of law''. In the case of your examples
> [[Allegations of Russian influence operations in Estonia]] and [[Allegations
> of internet operations by Russian secret police]] would not be valid since
> these activities are necessarily illegal. --[[User:Martintg|Martintg]]
> ([[User talk:Martintg|talk]]) 19:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
>
> I think this needs to be more clearly stated. It can be that these
> operations are quite legal (or at least not expressly prohibited) under
> Russian domestic law, particularly as they would be all government
> sanctioned. It's not the legality thereof that's the issue, Offliner's query
> is *whether the acts themselves have ever even been committed*. So, unless
> we have some individual convicted in Estonia or elsewhere conducting these
> operations, "Allegations of" may have to stand. "Former officials" et al.
> can be painted as hving an axe to grind.
>
> (And if so, it should at this point be a "on further thought" from
> Martin--who appears to be the major focus of agitation these days).
>
> /Peters
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh>
>
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Agree. This is actually a good argument why we should NOT have &quot;allega=
tions&quot; in titles. For example, I do not see why having hired political=
 commentators/contributors on opposition web sites like=A0 <a href=3D"http:=
//grani.ru">grani.ru</a> or in WP contradicts any Russian or international =
laws.<br>
<br>=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:59 PM, =
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:PetersJV@aol.com">PetersJV@aol.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">




<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><f=
ont size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">
<div>About... (my talk)</div>
<blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-right: 0px;">
  <div>[[Wikipedia:NAME#Controversial_name]]s states that &quot;allegation&=
quot; &#39;&#39;should=20
  be avoided in a title unless the article concerns charges in a legal case=
 or=20
  accusations of illegality under civil, criminal or international law whic=
h=20
  have not yet been proven in a court of law&#39;&#39;. In the case of your=
 examples=20
  [[Allegations of Russian influence operations in Estonia]] and [[Allegati=
ons=20
  of internet operations by Russian secret police]] would not be valid sinc=
e=20
  these activities are necessarily illegal. --[[User:Martintg|Martintg]] ([=
[User=20
  talk:Martintg|talk]]) 19:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC) </div></blockquote>
<div>I think this needs to be more clearly stated. It can be that these=20
operations are quite legal (or at least not expressly prohibited) under Rus=
sian=20
domestic law, particularly as they would be all government sanctioned. It&#=
39;s not=20
the legality thereof that&#39;s the issue, Offliner&#39;s query is <i>wheth=
er the acts=20
themselves have ever even been committed</i>. So, unless we have some=20
individual convicted in Estonia or elsewhere conducting these operations,=
=20
&quot;Allegations of&quot; may have to stand. &quot;Former officials&quot; =
et al. can be painted as=20
hving an axe to grind.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>(And if so, it should at this point be a &quot;on further thought&quot=
; from=20
Martin--who appears to be the major focus of agitation these days).</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>/Peters</div>
<div>=A0</div></font><div><br><font style=3D"color: black; font-family: ari=
al,san-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal=
; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretc=
h: normal;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top: 10px;">
<a href=3D"http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222865043x1201494942/ao=
l?redir=3Dhttp:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215692145%3B38015538%3Bh" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Dell Days of Deals! June 15-24 - A New Deal Everyday!</a><=
/font></div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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