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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:22:43 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  I don't know - even if there's something to this,
	Bandurist is clearly trying to create an impression of guilt without
	having to back it up. If he wants to say that the Soviets recruited
	Siemaszko then he'd have to source it. The way he wrote it is an
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  I don't know - even if there's something to this,
	Bandurist is clearly trying to create an impression of guilt without
	having to back it up. If he wants to say that the Soviets recruited
	Siemaszko then he'd have to source it. The way he wrote it is an attempt
	to give that impression without having to actually find a reliable
	source to back it up. I'm going to remove it. [...] 
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I don't know - even if there's something to this, Bandurist is clearly
trying to create an impression of guilt without having to back it up. If he
wants to say that the Soviets recruited Siemaszko then he'd have to source
it. The way he wrote it is an attempt to give that impression without having
to actually find a reliable source to back it up. I'm going to remove it.

Radek

2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

> Interestingly I see that Bandurist actually did insert a very puzzling
> piece of information:
> *Initially Siemaszko was imprisoned by [[NKVD]] in [[Lutsk]], until the [[Nazi
> German]] attack on the [[Soviet Union]] in June 1941. The retreating
> Soviet military police units routinely massacred Polish prisoners as
> "political enemies". Siemaszko survived. *
>
> To me it's interesting-for a long time I was personally interested why
> there never was a study on Soviet infiltration of the so-called
> "Kresowiacy"(for example Catholic Church in Poland was studied). I guess it
> might be due to lack of access of the Soviet archives. But logic dictates
> that they would be the most inflitrated group due to longer history under
> Soviet occupation and immiediate presence of Soviets. You might want to know
> that the recent supporters of the "kresowiacy" attacks against Ukraine are
> coming from Putin supporters like Petr Hecko. Petr Hecko is a separatists in
> Ukrainian territories of Rusins* who are supported by Putin's Russia and
> handing out Russian passports to Ukrainian citizens in Ukrainian Carpathia
> region*. Lately *they directly contacted Kresowiacy offering them support
> for attacks against Ukrainians(http://www.bibula.com/?p=12585).
>
> *So we should be cautious in dealings with those subjects. A lot of it is
> not what it seems, and Russians know very well how to manipulate naive
> Polish nationalists.
> *
> *
> 2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>
>> Hmm the Siemiaszko articles misses that the is not considered a reliable
>> historian and writes  solely from his perspective as fighter against
>> Ukrainians and Polish nationalists
>> http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf
>>
>> Plus he writes bizarre things like that Ukrainians wanted to exterminate
>> Polish nation(while in fact they are numerous cases in Wolyn where UPA
>> ordered Poles simply to leave).
>>
>> I think we should mention that he is not reliable historian in the article
>> and see if anything is sourced by him, as it would present a very POV
>> opinion from non-RS source. Perhaps someone can add on this ?
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
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I don&#39;t know - even if there&#39;s something to this, Bandurist is clea=
rly trying to create an impression of guilt without having to back it up. I=
f he wants to say that the Soviets recruited Siemaszko then he&#39;d have t=
o source it. The way he wrote it is an attempt to give that impression with=
out having to actually find a reliable source to back it up. I&#39;m going =
to remove it.<br>
<br>Radek<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px so=
lid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Interestingly I see that Bandurist actually did insert a very puzzling piec=
e of information:<br> <i><span>Initially Siemaszko </span>was imprisoned <s=
pan>by [[NKVD]] </span>in  [[<span>Lutsk</span>]], <span>until </span>the [=
[<span>Nazi German</span>]] <span>attack on the </span>[[<span>Soviet Union=
</span>]] <span>in
June 1941. The retreating Soviet military police units routinely
massacred Polish prisoners as &quot;political enemies&quot;. Siemaszko surv=
ived</span>. </i><br><br>To me it&#39;s interesting-for a long time I was p=
ersonally interested why there never was a study on Soviet infiltration of =
the so-called &quot;Kresowiacy&quot;(for example Catholic Church in Poland =
was studied). I guess it might be due to lack of access of the Soviet archi=
ves. But logic dictates that they would be the most inflitrated group due t=
o longer history under Soviet occupation and immiediate presence of Soviets=
. You might want to know that the recent supporters of the &quot;kresowiacy=
&quot; attacks against Ukraine are coming from Putin supporters like Petr H=
ecko. Petr Hecko is a separatists in Ukrainian territories of Rusins<b> who=
 are supported by Putin&#39;s Russia and handing out Russian passports to U=
krainian citizens in Ukrainian Carpathia region</b>. Lately <b>they directl=
y contacted Kresowiacy offering them support for attacks against Ukrainians=
(<a href=3D"http://www.bibula.com/?p=3D12585" target=3D"_blank">http://www.=
bibula.com/?p=3D12585</a>).<br>

<br></b>So we should be cautious in dealings with those subjects. A lot of =
it is not what it seems, and Russians know very well how to manipulate naiv=
e Polish nationalists.<br><b><br></b><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/=
20 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hmm the Siemiaszk=
o articles misses that the is not considered a reliable historian and write=
s=A0 solely from his perspective as fighter against Ukrainians and Polish n=
ationalists<br>

<a href=3D"http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wn=
uk.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/interma=
rium/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf</a><br>
<br>Plus he writes bizarre things like that Ukrainians wanted to exterminat=
e Polish nation(while in fact they are numerous cases in Wolyn where UPA or=
dered Poles simply to leave).<br><br>I think we should mention that he is n=
ot reliable historian in the article and see if anything is sourced by him,=
 as it would present a very POV opinion from non-RS source. Perhaps someone=
 can add on this ?<br>


</blockquote></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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