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Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 23:44:55 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Heh, he tries to skip the issue of colonists(of course
	giving the lowest possible numbers-also in regards to expelled Poles)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=prev&oldid=312034612
	*The settlers were for the most part ethnic Germans who fell victim to
	the Nazi-Soviet population transfers, most of them from just east of the
	Curzon line and thus covered in the "Soviet Union" section [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] To Jacurek/Expulsions article-two points
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	Content preview:  Heh, he tries to skip the issue of colonists(of course
	giving the lowest possible numbers-also in regards to expelled Poles)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=prev&oldid=312034612
	*The settlers were for the most part ethnic Germans who fell victim to
	the Nazi-Soviet population transfers, most of them from just east of the
	Curzon line and thus covered in the "Soviet Union" section [...] 
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Heh, he tries to skip the issue of colonists(of course giving the lowest
possible numbers-also in regards to expelled Poles)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after=
_World_War_II&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D312034612
*The settlers were for the most part ethnic Germans who fell victim to the
Nazi-Soviet population transfers, most of them from just east of the Curzon
line and thus covered in the "Soviet Union" section

*Counterarguments-
A- They were settled in Poland not in Soviet Union, so information about
them should be also covered in Polish section
B-There is a single line without any estimates nor other information.
C-The information about colonization in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#German_co=
lonization_and_settlement

gives also 400,000 to 500.000 German occupational administration and up to =
2
milion Germans settled by 1942. Such significant numbers should be
mentioned. The range of numbers is 800,000 to 1.000.000 using precise
statistics and 2 milion using general overview.

Note that this not include Germans settled in GG like in Zamo=C5=9B=C4=87 a=
rea.

*Actually, 250,000 Poles and 110,000 Jews from the annexed territories were
deported to the Generalgouvernement. Another 400,000 Jews from these areas
were later sent to extermination camps, and some 200,000 Poles were
subjected to forced labour. *

I wonder from where he go those numbers. We could try to ask about
that(might catch him on Holocaust Denial with the only 400,000 Jews sent to
concentration camps). Anyway for real numbers check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany#Expulsions_from_=
Polish_territories_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany


918 000 =E2=80=93 928 000 Annexed territories

1 689 000 =E2=80=93 1 709 000 All occupied territories



Ok so in my opinion we should press on  giving the number of colonists in
Polish section in beginning and note the number of expelled Poles for the,
Also try asking for the number of Jews deported, if we are lucky we get a
hook from that.

2009/9/5 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

>
> This proposal:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_aft=
er_World_War_II&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D311970340
> *
> The flight and expulsion of Germans (German: Die Vertreibung or Flucht un=
d
> Vertreibung) was the mass migration of German nationals from the former
> eastern territories of Germany and ethnic Germans from territories across
> Europe to the western and central areas of Germany towards the end and in
> the aftermath of World War II, when Allied administration and occupation
> replaced the former Nazi German one.
>
> *Is a blatant attempt of sneaky revisionism if I ever seen one. First it
> places Allies liberating their own countries(France for example, or even
> Poland) on equal term with Nazi German occupation(*when Allied
> administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one-*what
> the heck does this even mean ? That Europe was some neutral territory tha=
t
> switched from hands to hands ?). Secondly it tries to portay the Nazi rul=
e
> of Europe as something that can be named "administration"-a very
> whitewashing term. Third (although perhaps most important)-it tries to
> portay removal of German colonists as "migration of ethnic Germans".
> Fourth-it gives a POV term to parts of Germany that were annexed from Pol=
and
> and Czechs as "eastern territories of Germany"-see the article in wiki on
> this term- it describes those as including Pozna=C5=84 and whole Wielkopo=
lska
> region.
>
> A classic example how seemingly innocent proposals by Skapperod are in fa=
ct
> demonstrations of  subtle revisionist propaganda.
>
> Counterarguments:
> He states:*
> *"That these areas were occupied by Nazi Germany during the war is not a
> distinct feature of these areas, nearly all Europe was."
> Counterargument:the areas from which Germans were removed were in majorit=
y
> those were the Germans implemented a policy of extermination and racist
> definitions of Slavs and others as subhuman. The areas in question were
> subjected to heavy Germanisation and settlement. Thus they differ from
> situation in Western Europe. As such Nazi occupation is a valid point to
> bring in the lead.
> "The Nazi German occupation had ended before the expulsion started"
> The Nazi occupation was the reason for expulsions. Also the article deals
> with flight as well and those happened well within the operation of
> occupation.
>
>
>
>
> 2009/9/4 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>
> That should be restored as it reliably sourced. However this is not
>> connected to the subject I mentioned.
>>
>> 2009/9/4 Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
>>
>> One should also check this out:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DSoviet_war_crimes&curid=3D4=
751135&diff=3D311767110&oldid=3D311764778
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>>> I see that you are engaged in debate there.
>>>> It might be worth mentioning that those events are often named
>>>> population transfer rather then ethnic cleansing or genocide
>>>>
>>>> National minorities and the European nation-states system=E2=80=8E Jen=
nifer
>>>> Jackson Preece - 1998 Population transfer Population transfers were al=
so
>>>> advocated and ... approved the forced transfer of 6.5 million ethnic G=
ermans
>>>> from Czechoslovakia, Poland,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Expelling the Germans: British opinion and post-1945 population transf=
e
>>>> Matthew James Frank - 2008
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Europe and German unification=E2=80=8E Renata Fritsch-Bournaz 1992 The=
 expulsion
>>>> of Germans, who still numbered in the millions, ... burden of this
>>>> unprecedented population transfer was for the most part put on the Wes=
t
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The article completely avoids mentioning colonists and occupational
>>>> administration that were part of those removed:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_nazi_germany#Germ=
an_colonization_and_settlement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which is about 400,000-500.000 personal for occupation and about 630.0=
00
>>>> colonists in annexed territories. Alltogether 2 milion Germans by the =
end of
>>>> the war in all Polish territories. All this  is sourced in link above =
and
>>>> can be copied.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Heh, he tries to skip the issue of colonists(of course giving the lowest po=
ssible numbers-also in regards to expelled Poles)<br><br><a href=3D"http://=
en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_=
War_II&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=3D312034612">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind=
ex.php?title=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;diff=3Dprev=
&amp;oldid=3D312034612</a><br>
<i>The settlers were for the most part ethnic Germans who fell victim to
the Nazi-Soviet population transfers, most of them from just east of
the Curzon line and thus covered in the &quot;Soviet Union&quot; section<br=
><br></i>Counterarguments-<br>A- They were settled in Poland not in Soviet =
Union, so information about them should be also covered in Polish section<b=
r>
B-There is a single line without any estimates nor other information.<br>C-=
The information about colonization in <br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.or=
g/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#German_colonization_and_settlem=
ent">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Germ=
an_colonization_and_settlement</a><br>
<br>gives also 400,000 to 500.000 German occupational administration and up=
 to 2 milion Germans settled by 1942. Such significant numbers should be me=
ntioned. The range of numbers is 800,000 to 1.000.000 using precise statist=
ics and 2 milion using general overview. <br>
<br>Note that this not include Germans settled in GG like in Zamo=C5=9B=C4=
=87 area.<br><br><i>Actually, 250,000 Poles and 110,000 Jews from the annex=
ed territories
were deported to the Generalgouvernement. Another 400,000 Jews from
these areas were later sent to extermination camps, and some 200,000
Poles were subjected to forced labour. </i><br><br>I wonder from where he g=
o those numbers. We could try to ask about that(might catch him on Holocaus=
t Denial with the only 400,000 Jews sent to concentration camps). Anyway fo=
r real numbers check:<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany#E=
xpulsions_from_Polish_territories_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany">http://en.wikipe=
dia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany#Expulsions_from_Polish_territori=
es_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany</a><br>
<br><br>
918 000 =E2=80=93 928 000 Annexed territories<br><br>1 689 000 =E2=80=93 1 =
709 000 All occupied territories<br><br><br><br>Ok so in my opinion we shou=
ld press on=C2=A0 giving the number of colonists in Polish section in begin=
ning and note the number of expelled Poles for the, Also try asking for the=
 number of Jews deported, if we are lucky we get a hook from that.<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/5 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2=
04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>This proposal:<br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=
=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=
=3D311970340" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=
=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=
=3D311970340</a><br>

<i><br>The flight and expulsion of Germans (German: Die Vertreibung or Fluc=
ht
und Vertreibung) was the mass migration of German nationals from the
former eastern territories of Germany and ethnic Germans from
territories across Europe to the western and central areas of Germany
towards the end and in the aftermath of World War II, when Allied
administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one.<br><br><=
/i>Is a blatant attempt of sneaky revisionism if I ever seen one. First it =
places Allies liberating their own countries(France for example, or even Po=
land) on equal term with Nazi German occupation(<i>when Allied
administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one-</i>what =
the heck does this even mean ? That Europe was some neutral territory that =
switched from hands to hands ?). Secondly it tries to portay the Nazi rule =
of Europe as something that can be named &quot;administration&quot;-a very =
whitewashing term. Third (although perhaps most important)-it tries to port=
ay removal of German colonists as &quot;migration of ethnic Germans&quot;. =
Fourth-it gives a POV term to parts of Germany that were annexed from Polan=
d and Czechs as &quot;eastern territories of Germany&quot;-see the article =
in wiki on this term- it describes those as including Pozna=C5=84 and whole=
 Wielkopolska region.<br>


<br>A classic example how seemingly innocent proposals by Skapperod are in =
fact demonstrations of=C2=A0 subtle revisionist propaganda.<br><br>Countera=
rguments:<br>He states:<i><br></i>&quot;That these areas were occupied by N=
azi Germany during the war is not a distinct feature of these areas, nearly=
 all Europe was.&quot;<br>

Counterargument:the areas from which Germans were removed were in majority =
those were the Germans implemented a policy of extermination and racist def=
initions of Slavs and others as subhuman. The areas in question were subjec=
ted to heavy Germanisation and settlement. Thus they differ from situation =
in Western Europe. As such Nazi occupation is a valid point to bring in the=
 lead.<br>

&quot;The Nazi German occupation had ended before the expulsion started&quo=
t;<br>The Nazi occupation was the reason for expulsions. Also the article d=
eals with flight as well and those happened well within the operation of oc=
cupation.<br>

<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/4 Molobo Molobo <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">That should be re=
stored as it reliably sourced. However this is not connected to the subject=
 I mentioned.<br>


<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/4 Andrei Dombay <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:wikibiophys@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wikibiophys@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div><div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">One should also c=
heck this out:<br><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=
=3DSoviet_war_crimes&amp;curid=3D4751135&amp;diff=3D311767110&amp;oldid=3D3=
11764778" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DSov=
iet_war_crimes&amp;curid=3D4751135&amp;diff=3D311767110&amp;oldid=3D3117647=
78</a><br>




<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div>On Fri, Sep 4, 2009=
 at 1:18 PM, Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px sol=
id rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>=
<div></div><div>
I see that you are engaged in debate there.<br>It might be worth mentioning=
 that those events are often named population transfer rather then ethnic c=
leansing or genocide<br><br><p>National minorities and the European nation-=
states system=E2=80=8E Jennifer
Jackson Preece - 1998 Population transfer Population transfers were
also advocated and ... approved the forced transfer of 6.5 million
ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland,</p>
<p><br>
Expelling the Germans: British opinion and post-1945 population transfe Mat=
thew James Frank - 2008</p>
<p><br>
Europe and German unification=E2=80=8E Renata Fritsch-Bournaz 1992 The
expulsion of Germans, who still numbered in the millions, ... burden of
this unprecedented population transfer was for the most part put on the
West</p><p><br></p><p><br>The article completely avoids mentioning colonist=
s and occupational administration that were part of those removed:</p><p><a=
 href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_nazi_germany#=
German_colonization_and_settlement" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.o=
rg/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_nazi_germany#German_colonization_and_settle=
ment</a></p>





<p><br></p><p>Which is about 400,000-500.000 personal for occupation and ab=
out 630.000 colonists in annexed territories. Alltogether 2 milion Germans =
by the end of the war in all Polish territories. All this=C2=A0 is sourced =
in link above and can be copied.<br>





</p>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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