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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:28:16 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Hi Radek, Could you give me the link to the file where
	the numbers are mentioned ? Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
	Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english
	translation: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291 [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull
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	Content preview:  Hi Radek, Could you give me the link to the file where
	the numbers are mentioned ? Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
	Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english
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Hi Radek,

Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ?
Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english
translation:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291

*This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well
above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for
example by R=FCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=E4rische Verluste i=
m
Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):

  "The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the
immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and
similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or
bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events
historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches
Bundesamt), the refugees' associations and the clerical search service did =
a
lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively
assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result can
be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been kille=
d
during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective
territories who had died during military service.

   These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integral
part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counting
of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance whic=
h
concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion
territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed
that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last
years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as the
studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victims
can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an
unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the
previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be
said, however, that the balance didn't say that the death of these people
had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
*
I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2 milion
mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost the
article where it was written.

W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
napisa=B3:
> Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so could you look at
> Skapperod's latest argument
> [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#O=
vermans
]?
> He's trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million figure has
to
> be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state that this
is
> only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying to take
one
> single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all there is to it.
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>
>> Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by politicians :
>>
>> http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html
>> "Politycy cz=EAsto dzi=B6 wykorzystuj=B1 wyp=EAdzenia i wysiedlenia do s=
woich
>> dora=BCnych cel=F3w. Przedstawiaj=B1 takie wydarzenia i liczby, kt=F3re =
dla
>> nich s=B1 akurat wygodne"
>>
>> Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be better
>> if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that knows
>> Polish and good add this source.
>>
>>
>> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
>> > I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and if the
>> > numbers
>> > were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article.
>> >
>> > Here is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help you and
can
>> > be
>> > added as well to the sources needed
>> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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Hi Radek, <br><br>Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers =
are mentioned ? Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying. <br>Here is a an =
example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english translation:<br>
<a href=3D"http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291">http://foru=
m.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291</a><br><br><i>This estimate, which=
 in the second paragraph is referred to as being well above the mark, has r=
ecently been challenged by German historians, for example by R=FCdiger Over=
mans, author of Deutsche Milit=E4rische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Over=
mans writes the following (my translation):<br>
<br> &nbsp; &quot;The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germ=
ans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing sold=
iers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civi=
lians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed t=
he events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches=
 Bundesamt), the refugees&rsquo; associations and the clerical search servi=
ce did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quanti=
tatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The r=
esult can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had =
been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the resp=
ective territories who had died during military service.<br>
<br> &nbsp; &nbsp;These casualty figures, however, which for decades have b=
een an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result n=
ot of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a popula=
tion balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants o=
f the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefo=
re be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events.=
 In the last years,<b> however, these statements have been increasingly que=
stioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the nu=
mber of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons</b> - whic=
h is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarte=
r of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could a=
lways be said, however, that<b> the balance didn&rsquo;t say that the death=
 of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be cla=
rified.&quot;</b><br>
</i><br>I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2=
 milion mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost=
 the article where it was written.<br><br>W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=BFyt=
kownik radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; napisa=B3:<br>
&gt; Hey Molobo, my German&#39;s next to non existent so could you look at<=
br>&gt; Skapperod&#39;s latest argument<br>&gt; [<a href=3D"http://en.wikip=
edia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans">http:/=
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overman=
s</a>]?<br>
&gt; He&#39;s trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million fig=
ure has to<br>&gt; be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearl=
y state that this is<br>&gt; only part of the picture. It looks to me like =
Skapperod&#39;s trying to take one<br>
&gt; single adjustment out of many and pretend that that&#39;s all there is=
 to it.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Radek<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molo=
bo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by =
politicians :<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wr=
oclaw/1,35762,5205417.html">http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417=
.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Politycy cz=EAsto dzi=B6 wykorzystuj=B1 wyp=EAdzenia i wysie=
dlenia do swoich<br>&gt;&gt; dora=BCnych cel=F3w. Przedstawiaj=B1 takie wyd=
arzenia i liczby, kt=F3re dla<br>&gt;&gt; nich s=B1 akurat wygodne&quot;<br=
>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it =
would be better<br>
&gt;&gt; if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that kn=
ows<br>&gt;&gt; Polish and good add this source.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br=
>&gt;&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">=
molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and=
 if the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; numbers<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; were influenced by politi=
cians in Expulsion of Germans article.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; He=
re is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help you and can<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; be<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; added as well to the sources needed<br>&g=
t;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiar=
y.html">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; _____________________________________=
__________<br>&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>&gt;=
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks">ht=
tp://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt=
; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wiki=
pedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipe=
dometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bi=
n/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br>

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