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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 20:20:29 +0300
Message-ID: <f826636f0909081020t74a780dcyb03813318c235033@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: 2009/9/7 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> > radek
	szulga wrote: > > I started it here: > >
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi-Soviet_military_parade > > Please
	help
	expand (I will tomorrow) and watch for the usual trouble > > makers -
	this time from both sides. > > Excellent, I did some clean up. Please
	make sure to DYK it - I think it > can be nominated now, unless sb is
	planning a large expansion soon? > > How about we ask to have this
	DYKed on Sept 17? :) > > -- > Piotr Konieczny > [...] 
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	Content preview:  2009/9/7 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> > radek szulga
	wrote: > > I started it here: > >
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi-Soviet_military_parade > > Please help
	expand (I will tomorrow) and watch for the usual trouble > > makers -
	this time from both sides. > > Excellent, I did some clean up. Please
	make sure to DYK it - I think it > can be nominated now, unless sb is
	planning a large expansion soon? > > How about we ask to have this DYKed
	on Sept 17? :) > > -- > Piotr Konieczny > [...] 
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2009/9/7 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>

> radek szulga wrote:
> > I started it here:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi-Soviet_military_parade
> > Please help expand (I will tomorrow) and watch for the usual trouble
> > makers - this time from both sides.
>
> Excellent, I did some clean up. Please make sure to DYK it - I think it
> can be nominated now, unless sb is planning a large expansion soon?
>
> How about we ask to have this DYKed on Sept 17? :)
>
> --
> Piotr Konieczny
>

Excellent work!!! Congratulations to everybody who took part in this.
Perhaps we can issue a wiki-award "Anit-Soviet cross of the n-th degree" :)
DYK o 17 September is an excellent idea.

About other cities: I read once that a similar parade took place in Pinsk
(Belorussia). Also a similar parade took place a year late, on 4 July 1940
in Chi=C5=9Fin=C4=83u: the interesting feature of the later was that SS and=
 NKVD
troops were arranged one SS solder, one NKVD solder, etc. The SS troups wer=
e
in Bessarabia to help "repatriate" Bessarabian Germans.



> - peace in the Middle East can be achieved if parties drop preconditions,
> giving an explicit example: it is pointless to ask for the return of the
> Golan Heights as a precondition for discussions, since it is obviously cl=
ear
> that question number one in any bilateral discussions would be Golan
> Heights.
>

> It's an euphemism.  What it means is "Peace can be achieved once the
parties will
> start talking to each other instead of making up excuses why they can not
talk."  On
> both sides of the border, speaking to people on the other side is
relatively unpopular,
> so the situation is somewhat similar to why nobody but Nixon could repair
US-China
> relations.  Alas, the two Nixons -- an Israeli one and a Palestinian one
-- do not
> appear to have appeared yet.

I agree with you. But if B=C4=83sescu mentioned the example of Syria-Israel
relations in his speech to the ambassadors, while under no pressure to spea=
k
in specific terms, with examples, perhaps there is something going on.
Possibly US is trying to put pressure on Syria through having a cohesive
position of third countries.

- support for the EU and NATO integration of the western Balkan countries
> without any differences: support all countries indiscriminantly, and when=
 a
> country is ready it should get in
>

> ... and this will be very controversial.  :(

It was meant in the following sense: it's ok for one country in that region
to join earlier than another, b/c there is a determination that all of them
would join. For example, Croatia and Albania are now officially joining.
Republic of Macedonia can follow. That should not put some kind of pressure
on the relations with Serbia, Montenegro or Bosnia. Ditto for joining EU. I=
f
Croatia joins before Serbia, the other members won't allow Croatia to put
some sort conditions or veto for Serbia. So, it's ok to let them join once
they are ready, they don't have to wait for the least ready one.

> The Balkan countries have complex -- and at times, ugly -- recent
histories, and
> each of them has a lot of people already in EU who consider it demonic
and
> unsuitable to EU.  People tend to forget that EU accession does not work
> haphazardly and indiscriminately; instead, the possibility of eventual
accession will
> keep the countries motivated to build up reasonable infrastructure and
governance,
> even to significantly reduce corruption -- and after a decade of such wor=
k
with proper
> support and aid, most countries in the pre-accession talks manage to
significantly
> reduce their risky baggage.

That is already going on in these countries. But it is at different stages
in different countries.

- support Serbia's territorial integrity at the International Court of
> Justice, re-stating that Romania does not recognize Kosovo
>

> It will be interesting to see what will become of Kosovo by 2020.  On one
hand, it can
> become a thriving Balkan country.  On another, it may become something
akin to
> Transnistria.
>
> So far, I'm cautiously optimistic.

IMHO, it was wrong when US and EU put as precondition when the Ahtisaari
plan was developed that Kosovo not be territorially divided. The true
problem is that these politicians that like so much to be power brokers do
not know Geography. One can give northern-northwestern half (or almost half=
)
of Kosovo back to Serbia (including such sites as Decani Monastery, etc),
and the other half (or just over half) join with Albania. The Albanians of
Kosovo would rather prefer one bigger Albania than a new "country" with
problems of non-recognition. If done smartly, no more than 500,000 Albanian=
s
would find themselves back in Serbia. Given the fact that about a similar
number of Serbs either are refugees from Kosovo, or currently live in the
southern part of the province (they do exist and are not a negligible
quantity, although they keep quiet for obvious reasons), that would be
roughly fair.

- support Moldova's EU integration in the package with the western Balkans,
> and not in the package with Ukraine, Turkey and other possible candidates=
.
>

> What does this mean, in practical terms?

EU said all 6 countries of the Western Balkans are welcome to join.
Negotiations with them either have started, or would start without any
pre-conditions. Romania wants that Moldova be allowed the same latitude.
However, Ukraine and Turkey can not currently start negotiations with the
European Commission. Only if the European Council unanimously approves at
one of its bi-annual meetings... Which practically means it can be approved
(to start negotiations) next year or in 20 years. To be precise, if Iceland
and Switzerland decide to join tomorrow, they have to go through the
approval of the Council, too, but it is clear to everybody that nobody woul=
d
oppose. Moreover, if negotiations with latter two start, they can end very
quickly, more like months than years. The point is that Romania wants
Moldova to start on this path with formal negotiations, because that pushes
changes to happen. If they close 3 chapters per year, that means 10 years,
but from practical point of view of the internal politics and bureaucracy i=
n
Moldova that would mean "a great leap forward". It would tie Moldova to the
West, and Russia's influence would thaw much quicker.

Dorin

--0003255583fadae99a0473142ec7
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/7 Piotr Konieczny <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div cl=
ass=3D"im">
radek szulga wrote:<br>
&gt; I started it here:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi-Soviet_military_parade" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi-Soviet_military_parade</=
a><br>
&gt; Please help expand (I will tomorrow) and watch for the usual trouble<b=
r>
&gt; makers - this time from both sides.<br>
<br>
</div>Excellent, I did some clean up. Please make sure to DYK it - I think =
it<br>
can be nominated now, unless sb is planning a large expansion soon?<br>
<br>
How about we ask to have this DYKed on Sept 17? :)<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
--<br>
Piotr Konieczny<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Excellent work!!! Congratulations to=
 everybody who took part in this. Perhaps we can issue a wiki-award &quot;A=
nit-Soviet cross of the n-th degree&quot; :) DYK o 17 September is an excel=
lent idea.</div>
<div><br></div><div>About other cities: I read once that a similar parade t=
ook place in Pinsk (Belorussia). Also a similar parade took place a year la=
te, on 4 July 1940 in Chi=C5=9Fin=C4=83u: the interesting feature of the la=
ter was that SS and NKVD troops were arranged one SS solder, one NKVD solde=
r, etc. The SS troups were in Bessarabia to help &quot;repatriate&quot; Bes=
sarabian Germans.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"b=
order-collapse: collapse; "><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im" st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(80, 0, 80); "><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex;=
 border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left=
-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; ">
<div>- peace in the Middle East can be achieved if parties drop preconditio=
ns, giving an explicit example: it is pointless to ask for the return of th=
e Golan Heights as a precondition for discussions, since it is obviously cl=
ear that question number one in any bilateral discussions would be Golan He=
ights.</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>&gt; It&#39;s an euphemism. =C2=A0Wh=
at it means is &quot;Peace can be achieved once the parties will=C2=A0</div=
><div>&gt; start talking to each other instead of making up excuses why the=
y can not talk.&quot; =C2=A0On=C2=A0</div>
<div>&gt; both sides of the border, speaking to people on the other side is=
 relatively unpopular,=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; so the situation is somewhat si=
milar to why nobody but Nixon could repair US-China=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; re=
lations. =C2=A0Alas, the two Nixons -- an Israeli one and a Palestinian one=
 -- do not=C2=A0</div>
<div>&gt; appear to have appeared yet.</div><div class=3D"im" style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(80, 0, 80); "><div><br></div><div>I agree with you. But if B=C4=83se=
scu mentioned the example of Syria-Israel relations in his speech to the am=
bassadors, while under no pressure to speak in specific terms, with example=
s, perhaps there is something going on. Possibly US is trying to put pressu=
re on Syria through having a cohesive position of third countries.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-widt=
h: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; pa=
dding-left: 1ex; ">
<div></div><div>- support for the EU and NATO integration of the western Ba=
lkan countries without any differences: support all countries indiscriminan=
tly, and when a country is ready it should get in</div></blockquote><div>
<br></div></div><div>&gt; ... and this will be very controversial. =C2=A0:(=
</div><div><br></div><div>It was meant in the following sense: it&#39;s ok =
for one country in that region to join earlier than another, b/c there is a=
 determination that all of them would join. For example, Croatia and Albani=
a are now officially joining. Republic of Macedonia can follow. That should=
 not put some kind of pressure on the relations with Serbia, Montenegro or =
Bosnia. Ditto for joining EU. If Croatia joins before Serbia, the other mem=
bers won&#39;t allow Croatia to put some sort conditions or veto for Serbia=
. So, it&#39;s ok to let them join once they are ready, they don&#39;t have=
 to wait for the least ready one.</div>
<div><br></div><div>&gt; The Balkan countries have complex -- and at times,=
 ugly -- recent histories, and=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; each of them has a lot =
of people already in EU who consider it demonic and=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; un=
suitable to EU. =C2=A0People tend to forget that EU accession does not work=
=C2=A0</div>
<div>&gt; haphazardly and indiscriminately; instead, the possibility of eve=
ntual accession will=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; keep the countries motivated to b=
uild up reasonable infrastructure and governance,=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; even=
 to significantly reduce corruption -- and after a decade of such work with=
 proper=C2=A0</div>
<div>&gt; support and aid, most countries in the pre-accession talks manage=
 to significantly=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; reduce their risky baggage.</div><di=
v class=3D"im" style=3D"color: rgb(80, 0, 80); "><div><br></div><div>That i=
s already going on in these countries. But it is at different stages in dif=
ferent countries.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-widt=
h: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; pa=
dding-left: 1ex; ">
<div></div><div>- support Serbia&#39;s territorial integrity at the Interna=
tional Court of Justice, re-stating that Romania does not recognize Kosovo<=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>&gt; It will be interesting to =
see what will become of Kosovo by 2020. =C2=A0On one hand, it can=C2=A0</di=
v>
<div>&gt; become a thriving Balkan country. =C2=A0On another, it may become=
 something akin to=C2=A0</div><div>&gt; Transnistria.</div><div>&gt;</div><=
div>&gt; So far, I&#39;m cautiously optimistic.</div><div class=3D"im" styl=
e=3D"color: rgb(80, 0, 80); ">
<div><br></div><div>IMHO, it was wrong when US and EU put as precondition w=
hen the Ahtisaari plan was developed that Kosovo not be territorially divid=
ed. The true problem is that these politicians that like so much to be powe=
r brokers do not know Geography. One can give northern-northwestern half (o=
r almost half) of Kosovo back to Serbia (including such sites as Decani Mon=
astery, etc), and the other half (or just over half) join with Albania. The=
 Albanians of Kosovo would rather prefer one bigger Albania than a new &quo=
t;country&quot; with problems of non-recognition. If done smartly, no more =
than 500,000 Albanians would find themselves back in Serbia. Given the fact=
 that about a similar number of Serbs either are refugees from Kosovo, or c=
urrently live in the southern part of the province (they do exist and are n=
ot a negligible quantity, although they keep quiet for obvious reasons), th=
at would be roughly fair.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-widt=
h: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; pa=
dding-left: 1ex; ">
<div>- support Moldova&#39;s EU integration in the package with the western=
 Balkans, and not in the package with Ukraine, Turkey and other possible ca=
ndidates.</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>&gt; What does this m=
ean, in practical terms?</div>
<div><br></div><div>EU said all 6 countries of the Western Balkans are welc=
ome to join. Negotiations with them either have started, or would start wit=
hout any pre-conditions. Romania wants that Moldova be allowed the same lat=
itude. However, Ukraine and Turkey can not currently start negotiations wit=
h the European Commission. Only if the European Council unanimously approve=
s at one of its bi-annual meetings... Which practically means it can be app=
roved (to start negotiations) next year or in 20 years. To be precise, if I=
celand and Switzerland decide to join tomorrow, they have to go through the=
 approval of the Council, too, but it is clear to everybody that nobody wou=
ld oppose. Moreover, if negotiations with latter two start, they can end ve=
ry quickly, more like months than years. The point is that Romania wants Mo=
ldova to start on this path with formal negotiations, because that pushes c=
hanges to happen. If they close 3 chapters per year, that means 10 years, b=
ut from practical point of view of the internal politics and bureaucracy in=
 Moldova that would mean &quot;a great leap forward&quot;. It would tie Mol=
dova to the West, and Russia&#39;s influence would thaw much quicker.</div>
<div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collap=
se: separate;"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: c=
ollapse;">Dorin</span></span></div></div></span></div>

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