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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:19:25 +0300
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	Content preview:  On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 19:31,
	<PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:
	> We need to come up with an approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of
	> the cores of the issue: *that Soviet archives are "open" does not
	mean
	> they contain the facts*. Rather than shedding light on the past, these
	> archives need the same degree of knowledgeable interpretation based
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	Content preview:  On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 19:31, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:
	> We need to come up with an approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of
	> the cores of the issue: *that Soviet archives are "open" does not mean
	> they contain the facts*. Rather than shedding light on the past, these
	> archives need the same degree of knowledgeable interpretation based on
	> verifiable events as some *Pravda* article from the 40's and 50's. >
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On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 19:31, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:

>  We need to come up with an approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of
> the cores of the issue: *that Soviet archives are "open" does not mean
> they contain the facts*. Rather than shedding light on the past, these
> archives need the same degree of knowledgeable interpretation based on
> verifiable events as some *Pravda* article from the 40's and 50's.
>

Good idea.  Does it fit into [[Soviet historiography]], or will we need a
separate article?

believe me, he does, we can't touch him more than what the article contains
> now. I first read through his drivel (via machine translation) some years
> ago, look also for my Dyukov interchange with Fkriuk
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6 two years ago, and
> I've heard a number of his spots on Russia Today. (Sorry to appear to be
> the devil's advocate here, but I've debated the Maucos and Vlad Federovs
> enough to know what we can make stick...)
>

However, we don't need to debate them to the end in order to win.  Some
debating will be needed, sure, and some debating might even be fun --
winning, however, depends more on organising better than winning at the
debate.

Besides, it would seem neither Russavia nor Offliner are well-versed in the
official apology for Dyukov.  This is likely to give us some leeway.
 (Xasha, however, is -- so, in order to retain this leeway, it would be best
to keep Xasha away.)

 Here's the problem, and I'll put it in terms of another issue I've been
> involved in:
>
>    - some scholar quotes a (lying) Nazi archive on locals bludgeoning
>    their Jewish neighbors (or "leaked" news report through Sweden, a known
>    conduit)--there is German correspondence on specific incidents which
>    contradicts the "official" accounts--aside from the usual photograph of true
>    collaborators or drunks in uniforms with the directing Nazi officers
>    accidentally left in the picture due to poor framing (damn 95% of field of
>    view rangefinder cameras!)--the Soviet derivative, "Daugavas Vanagi, Who Are
>    They?," is still alive and well and stated to be largely verified by
>    respected scholars like David Cesarani
>    - some scholar quotes a (lying) Soviet archive on deportees riding away
>    to their new lives on coach trains with three square meals a day and
>    attentive medical care
>
> In the short run, we should invoke NPOV and claim that said lying Soviet
scholar is merely making an interpretation, which needs to be balanced by
other sources.  It's a well-known ploy, but very effective for gaining a
foothold.

In the long run, wikipolitics and the historiography articles come to play.
 I'm sure Laar's new history initiative will help us with the historiography
articles considerably in upcoming year -- after all, he's going to do a lot
of battling with Dyukov too.

P.S., I've also registered "LEEH.ORG" (Library of Eastern European Heritage)
> in reserve, and my other site on Transnistria et al. has been quiet, have
> had no time, "AFGPI.ORG"--if folks would like to submit materials or well
> researched commentary there, please Email me. (And for the really motivated,
> I long ago registered "TRANSNISTRIANVOICE.ORG" but if anyone wants to work
> on that, it will need to likely be in the fall.)
>

Will you be doing something about the Georgia situation?  It would seem this
is a worthwile battle.

For example, I have a monograph published by the Soviet information service
> on how they were forced to take action in the Baltics for their own
> protection, from *before* the Nazi invasion. And an article from the
> weekly radio listings in Riga on an incident of a Russian submarine
> attacking the evil Finns for the glory of Stalin and Russia.
>

I know it's a lot to ask, but could you scan the monograph in full, and
share it with us?  For obvious copyright issues, we can't publish it on the
Internet in full, but the more people can read it, the best chances we will
have in the debates.

As you've likely figured out by now, I don't shy from the front lines, but
> working as a team with some division of labor, I'm cautiously confident we
> can make steady progress. *Patience and the (verifiable) facts are on our
> side.*
>

True.  We'll need some structure, and we'll be all set.

-- 
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 19:31,  <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:PetersJV@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">PetersJV@aol.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D=
"Arial" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">
<div>We need to come up with an approach, article, etc. that cuts to one of=
 the=20
cores of the issue: <strong><u>that Soviet archives are &quot;open&quot; do=
es not mean=20
they contain the facts</u></strong>. Rather than shedding light on the past=
,=20
these archives need the same degree of knowledgeable interpretation based o=
n=20
verifiable events as some <em>Pravda</em> article from the 40&#39;s and 50&=
#39;s.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Good idea. =C2=A0=
Does it fit into [[Soviet historiography]], or will we need a separate arti=
cle?</div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" siz=
e=3D"2"><div>

believe me, he does, we can&#39;t touch him more than what the article=20
contains now. I first read through his drivel (via machine translation) som=
e=20
years ago, look also for my Dyukov interchange with Fkriuk=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Holodomor/Archive_6</a>=C2=A0two=20
years ago,=C2=A0and I&#39;ve heard a number of his spots on Russia=20
Today.=C2=A0(Sorry to=C2=A0appear to=C2=A0be the=C2=A0devil&#39;s advocate =
here, but=20
I&#39;ve debated the Maucos and Vlad Federovs enough to know what we can ma=
ke=20
stick...)</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>However, we do=
n&#39;t need to debate them to the end in order to win. =C2=A0Some debating=
 will be needed, sure, and some debating might even be fun -- winning, howe=
ver, depends more on organising better than winning at the debate.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Besides, it would seem neither Russavia nor Offliner ar=
e well-versed in the official apology for Dyukov. =C2=A0This is likely to g=
ive us some leeway. =C2=A0(Xasha, however, is -- so, in order to retain thi=
s leeway, it would be best to keep Xasha away.)</div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" siz=
e=3D"2"><div>

</div>
<div>Here&#39;s the problem, and I&#39;ll put it in terms of another issue =
I&#39;ve been=20
involved in:<br></div>
<ul>
  <li>some scholar quotes a (lying) Nazi archive on locals bludgeoning thei=
r=20
  Jewish neighbors (or &quot;leaked&quot; news report through Sweden, a kno=
wn=20
  conduit)--there is German correspondence on specific incidents which=20
  contradicts the &quot;official&quot; accounts--aside from the usual photo=
graph of true=20
  collaborators or=C2=A0drunks in uniforms with the directing Nazi officers=
=20
  accidentally left in the picture due to poor framing (damn 95% of field o=
f=20
  view rangefinder cameras!)--the Soviet derivative, &quot;Daugavas Vanagi,=
 Who Are=20
  They?,&quot; is still alive and well and stated to be largely verified by=
 respected=20
  scholars like David Cesarani</li>
  <li>some scholar quotes a (lying) Soviet archive on deportees riding away=
 to=20
  their new lives on coach trains with three square meals a day and attenti=
ve=20
  medical care</li></ul></font></div></blockquote><div>In the short run, we=
 should invoke NPOV and claim that said lying Soviet scholar is merely maki=
ng an interpretation, which needs to be balanced by other sources. =C2=A0It=
&#39;s a well-known ploy, but very effective for gaining a foothold.<br>

</div><div><br></div><div>In the long run, wikipolitics and the historiogra=
phy articles come to play. =C2=A0I&#39;m sure Laar&#39;s new history initia=
tive will help us with the historiography articles considerably in upcoming=
 year -- after all, he&#39;s going to do a lot of battling with Dyukov too.=
<span style=3D"font-family:Arial"></span></div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" siz=
e=3D"2"><div>
P.S., I&#39;ve also registered &quot;<a href=3D"http://LEEH.ORG" target=3D"=
_blank">LEEH.ORG</a>&quot; (Library of Eastern European=20
Heritage) in reserve, and my other site on Transnistria et al.=C2=A0has bee=
n=20
quiet, have had no time, &quot;<a href=3D"http://AFGPI.ORG" target=3D"_blan=
k">AFGPI.ORG</a>&quot;--if folks would like to submit materials or=20
well researched commentary there, please Email me. (And for the really=20
motivated, I long ago registered &quot;<a href=3D"http://TRANSNISTRIANVOICE=
.ORG" target=3D"_blank">TRANSNISTRIANVOICE.ORG</a>&quot; but if anyone want=
s to=20
work on that, it will need to likely be in the fall.)</div></font></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Will you be doing something about the Georgia=
 situation? =C2=A0It would seem this is a worthwile battle.</div><div><br><=
/div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;f=
ont-family:Arial"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"><div>Fo=
r example, I have a=20
monograph published by the Soviet information service on how they were forc=
ed to=20
take action in the Baltics for their own protection, from <em>before</em> t=
he=20
Nazi invasion. And an article from the weekly radio listings in Riga on an=
=20
incident of a Russian submarine attacking the evil Finns for the glory of S=
talin=20
and Russia.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I know it&#3=
9;s a lot to ask, but could you scan the monograph in full, and share it wi=
th us? =C2=A0For obvious copyright issues, we can&#39;t publish it on the I=
nternet in full, but the more people can read it, the best chances we will =
have in the debates.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" siz=
e=3D"2"><div>
As you&#39;ve likely figured out by now, I don&#39;t shy from the front lin=
es, but=20
working as a team with some division of labor, I&#39;m cautiously confident=
 we can=20
make steady progress. <strong><u>Patience and the (verifiable) facts are on=
 our=20
side.</u></strong></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>True.=
 =C2=A0We&#39;ll need some structure, and we&#39;ll be all set.</div><div><=
br></div></div>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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