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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:59:33 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: "I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then
	Wrangel who refused to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was
	more ambigous on the subject matter)." Actually Denikin agreed at last
	to Polish state-but with the border on Bug, which Pilsudski refused and
	allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies. As to Kresy ? The Kresy
	were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they offered no resources, 
	no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish majority almost
	anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, hostile
	population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland had developed
	agriculture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn't need any
	anymore at that price. Besides-they required constant police
	supervision, where the breeding ground of resistance against Poland,
	drained money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not build its
	position on agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its army and
	modern transporation. You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:
	http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  "I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then
	Wrangel who refused to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was
	more ambigous on the subject matter)." Actually Denikin agreed at last
	to Polish state-but with the border on Bug, which Pilsudski refused and
	allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies. As to Kresy ? The Kresy
	were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they offered no resources,
	no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish majority almost
	anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, hostile
	population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland had developed
	agriculture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn't need any
	anymore at that price. Besides-they required constant police
	supervision, where the breeding ground of resistance against Poland,
	drained money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not build its
	position on agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its army and
	modern transporation. You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:
	http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php [...] 
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"I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refused t=
o
cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the
subject matter)."
Actually Denikin agreed at last to Polish state-but with the border on Bug,
which Pilsudski refused and allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies.
As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they
offered no resources, no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish
majority almost anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps,
marshes, hostile population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland had
developed agriculture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn't need
any anymore at that price. Besides-they required constant police
supervision, where the breeding ground of resistance against Poland, draine=
d
money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not build its position on
agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its army and modern
transporation.
You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:
http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php

They show how big wasteland the Kresy were.  It makes me cry that Poles los=
t
so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their
nationalism.


W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=BFytkownik radek szulga
<rsszulga@gmail.com>napisa=B3:

> I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refused =
to
> cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the
> subject matter). The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Curzo=
n
> line vs. Silesia) could actually have been made. Pilsudski was
> understandably afraid that compromising on either would mean a loss of bo=
th.
> I think he was right in that regard.elo
>
> From a purely economic point of view I'm not so sure that the coal of
> Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and especially
> commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry, coal,
> steel and all that. But that's only because Britain, which was the first =
to
> industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on services.
> Belgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricultural
> products. France's "industrialization" (a misnomer) was in good part
> agriculture driven. So I don't think that getting the mineral rich Silesi=
a
> instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something worth fighting for=
 -
> on economic grounds.
>
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>
>> I don't have illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative  and more
>> part of Entente would not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-which=
 is
>> an accusation oft given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperation a=
nd
>> military thrust when WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a stro=
nger
>> Russia would be needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW with
>> Germany. A Poland largely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be a
>> richer, safer and better Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federate
>> anyway. And of course what is usually forgotten is that Endeks as suppor=
ters
>> of neoslavism were more supportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. But =
as
>> you know it's AH today.
>>
>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com
>> > napisa=B3:
>>
>> It's certainly possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was to=
o
>>> little too late - still, I think he had the right idea though possibly =
at
>>> the wrong time. His ideas though should've been given a chance and not =
have
>>> been torpodoed by Dmowski's people who were motivated much more by "rac=
ism"
>>> (if that's an appropriate term here) which eventually resulted in the
>>> pacifications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any kind of clearly def=
ined
>>> national interest. I think you're giving Dmowski too much credit here -=
 it's
>>> not like the guy was a big supporter of Ukrainian independence.
>>>
>>> But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the
>>> integration with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the
>>> Jasienica view I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away fro=
m
>>> Western Europe. But Pilsudski came 500+ years after Grunwald and he had=
 to
>>> deal with the reality he inherited - it was as unrealistic to try and t=
urn
>>> back the clock at that point as it was to try to form a "Poland for Pol=
es".
>>> All things considered I think that inegrationist/multicultural program =
was
>>> the most realistic of all available options.
>>>
>>>
>>> Radek
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Oh, to me personally Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish though=
t
>>>> and all of ills that Kresy brough(I for example believe that the fall =
of
>>>> Poland started with integration with Lithuania, bringing Lithuanian ma=
gnats
>>>> into power, and the economic system of feudal plantations of Ukrainian=
s as
>>>> base of Polish economy). Would much prefer a scenario after WW1 where =
in
>>>> which Poland is smaller but more western oriented with ethnic Polish
>>>> territories in Silesia, Warmia, and Dmowski helped the White Russians =
win,
>>>> which resulted in Central European alliance of slavic countries under =
aegis
>>>> of Federated Russian Republic. But that is Alternate History alltogeth=
er :D
>>>> Still I respect you as a person and your views. I just don't think the=
y are
>>>> correct. I read the diaries or opinions of Poles from early XX century=
 and
>>>> they would not allow for any coexistance with Ukrainian or Belarussian
>>>> minorites.
>>>>
>>>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com> napisa=B3:
>>>>
>>>> Well, I know some crazy people too.
>>>>> Heh, it sounds like you really took your Jasienica (who of course was
>>>>> part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart. I dunno, it's just a big "W=
hat If"
>>>>> - interesting to muse about but just not applicable to analyzing hist=
ory as
>>>>> she really happened. My big "what if" is what if the interwar Pilsuds=
ki
>>>>> Poland could have transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic, tole=
rant
>>>>> state like the US that knew how to gain from its inherent multicultur=
alism
>>>>> rather than letting itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalries whi=
ch only
>>>>> benefited its enemies/neighbors. I'm pretty aware that I'm only "Poli=
sh" by
>>>>> a few accidents of history. This is also why I'm not a big fan of the
>>>>> Endecja derived movements of today.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Radek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Really I know quite a few people who would or do.
>>>>>> As to Przemysl it was originally part of Ukrainian state and
>>>>>> unfortunetely will remain a sore point in future relations.
>>>>>> I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 would regain Kr=F3le=
wiec
>>>>>> and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, while leaving all c=
onquered
>>>>>> Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not perfect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/8/22 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Nobody serious in Poland demands former Polish territories called
>>>>>>> Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there are U=
krainian
>>>>>>> organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hope y=
ou know
>>>>>>> about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Poland.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
>>>>>>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 5:12 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in
>>>>>>> Ukraine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by
>>>>>>> rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once t=
aken over
>>>>>>> by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hate =
speech of
>>>>>>> certain kresowiacy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian
>>>>>>>> policitians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russians=
, by
>>>>>>>> erecting monuments to and praising people whom the Poles regard as
>>>>>>>> murderers. Am I right or not?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BTW do you know who is main ally of a German pro-Nazi National
>>>>>>>> Democratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here
>>>>>>>> http://www.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html and here
>>>>>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.m=
c328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >* wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.=
com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
>>>>>>>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc32=
8.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion th=
at
>>>>>>>> the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and =
even a
>>>>>>>> bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko him=
self was a
>>>>>>>> Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also w=
ritten on
>>>>>>>> NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that
>>>>>>>> kresowiacy work for the benefit or Russia and that society has nev=
er been
>>>>>>>> screened well for Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin's puppets =
like the
>>>>>>>> seperatists from Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters of s=
upport to
>>>>>>>> kresowiacy.
>>>>>>>> You know the saying "*You Will Know Them* By Their *Fruits*"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>>>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
rsszulga@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > napisa=B3:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion th=
at
>>>>>>>>> the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and=
 even a
>>>>>>>>> bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko hi=
mself was a
>>>>>>>>> Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also =
written on
>>>>>>>>> NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn'=
t
>>>>>>>>> be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of=
 AK units
>>>>>>>>> "revealed" themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole "ally o=
f our
>>>>>>>>> allies" world view (this is why NSZ, even though they played a fa=
r more
>>>>>>>>> minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role in =
the
>>>>>>>>> fighting with the communists after the war). But I think you're j=
umping to
>>>>>>>>> conclusions here, before the actual research can come out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Radek
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.=
yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that
>>>>>>>>>> the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it=
's possible
>>>>>>>>>> but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"
>>>>>>>>>>  The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being
>>>>>>>>>> researched. The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However k=
nown
>>>>>>>>>> research indicates that this was very extensive and widespread.
>>>>>>>>>> I can look for more detailed data later but for now:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *W swojej ksi=B1=BFce "Miecz i tarcza komunizmu" pisze pan, =BFe
>>>>>>>>>> sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=B3=
a to silna
>>>>>>>>>> infiltracja?*
>>>>>>>>>> *Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=EA=
pu do
>>>>>>>>>> sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie jest=
 tylko problem
>>>>>>>>>> sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polskie=
go pa=F1stwa
>>>>>>>>>> podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunistyczn=
ych, gdzie
>>>>>>>>>> podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=EAc=
ie o rozmiarach tej
>>>>>>>>>> akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=BFe i=
ch skuteczno=B6=E6,
>>>>>>>>>> zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To, =BFe polska bezpieka i NKWD s=
tosunkowo =B3atwo
>>>>>>>>>> "oczy=B6ci=B3y" teren Polski z ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiadomo=
, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA
>>>>>>>>>> w jaki=B6 op=F3r, to =B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=
=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=B1
>>>>>>>>>> skal=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6 skuteczne. *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-cz=
lowiek.html
>>>>>>>>>> *Machcewicz =B6wietnie pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne podz=
ia=B3y
>>>>>>>>>> sceny politycznej dezorganizowa=B3y funkcjonowanie podziemia, ja=
k przebiega=B3a
>>>>>>>>>> infiltracja =B6rodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z dr=
ugiej strony,
>>>>>>>>>> na czym polega=B3a zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy obozem demokrat=
=F3w, sanacj=B1 i
>>>>>>>>>> narodowcami - rywalizacja, kt=F3ra prowadzi=B3a do zbrodni i sam=
os=B1d=F3w.
>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_histor=
ie_polski_od_nowa.htm
>>>>>>>>>> *A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? *
>>>>>>>>>> *Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach
>>>>>>>>>> polskich w=B3adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=B3=
ywy.
>>>>>>>>>> Wykorzystywali to, =BFe AK z czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mocn=
o w lewo. Polskie
>>>>>>>>>> podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zgod=
nych z niemieckimi
>>>>>>>>>> interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja "B=
urza" z
>>>>>>>>>> powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko je=
dna strona -
>>>>>>>>>> Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 pytanie, czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, a =
je=BFeli tak, to w
>>>>>>>>>> jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na to, =BFe Warszawa akurat 1 sierp=
nia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a
>>>>>>>>>> do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie mog=B3aby si=EA okaza=E6 szo=
kuj=B1ca. *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupid
>>>>>>>>>> Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."
>>>>>>>>>> Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed
>>>>>>>>>> Volhyn with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they =
did. Which I
>>>>>>>>>> don't even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this s=
tance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  "And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole"
>>>>>>>>>> I am a Pole not a* kresowiak *who is more interested in dreams o=
f
>>>>>>>>>> owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know looove=
d being
>>>>>>>>>> under Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak =
mindset) in
>>>>>>>>>> mudflats of Kresy, rather  about good of Poland. Currently I can=
 think of no
>>>>>>>>>> other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles an=
d Polish
>>>>>>>>>> state the *kresowiacy. *The support they receive from Putin and
>>>>>>>>>> the amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they w=
orking
>>>>>>>>>> for-even if they are as Lenin put it "useful idiots".
>>>>>>>>>> So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to *kresowiak*i=
f that's what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all
>>>>>>>>>> other Poles just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do=
 not play
>>>>>>>>>> their game. The kresowiaks should understand that the interest o=
f Polish
>>>>>>>>>> people and Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at U=
krainians we
>>>>>>>>>> once opressed or dreaming about wooden villages in muds and swam=
ps of Kresy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  "Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the
>>>>>>>>>> Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population=
 of
>>>>>>>>>> Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1=
921, and
>>>>>>>>>> still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Vol=
hynian
>>>>>>>>>> Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans. They had all the r=
easons to be
>>>>>>>>>> bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grud=
ziadz,
>>>>>>>>>> and 66% of Torun was German. Nine years later, these cities beca=
me part of
>>>>>>>>>> Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minorit=
y as well.
>>>>>>>>>> Still, nobody justifies the Germans."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to
>>>>>>>>>> which Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign occupat=
ion and no
>>>>>>>>>> matter how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilniu=
s were not
>>>>>>>>>> Polish but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania=
.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse t=
he
>>>>>>>>>> killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale"
>>>>>>>>>> Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polis=
h
>>>>>>>>>> militias.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that
>>>>>>>>>> the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes t=
o pack the
>>>>>>>>>> stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look=
 any better?
>>>>>>>>>> Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove th=
e Latvians
>>>>>>>>>> from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them=
 to
>>>>>>>>>> Siberia?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in
>>>>>>>>>> Volhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is
>>>>>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of t=
he
>>>>>>>>>>> Poles, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the i=
nterbellum,
>>>>>>>>>>> who wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Po=
lish party or
>>>>>>>>>>> organization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of P=
oland. The
>>>>>>>>>>> ideal was to move them somewhere out of the country, most prefe=
rrably to
>>>>>>>>>>> Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not onl=
y endorse the
>>>>>>>>>>> killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no=
 sources
>>>>>>>>>>> inform us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to mov=
e away. They
>>>>>>>>>>> just came to the villages and began the slaughter without any w=
arning.
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, even if they had warned the Poles, it does not really c=
hange
>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that
>>>>>>>>>>> the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes =
to pack the
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD loo=
k any better?
>>>>>>>>>>> Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove t=
he Latvians
>>>>>>>>>>> from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported the=
m to Siberia?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of
>>>>>>>>>>> civilians can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing =
Poles, or
>>>>>>>>>>> Poles killing Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the =
area of
>>>>>>>>>>> Jedwabne had all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very act=
ively
>>>>>>>>>>> cooperated with Soviet regime, and their cooperation resulted i=
n thousands
>>>>>>>>>>> of Poles deported to Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never,=
 under no
>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Naz=
i
>>>>>>>>>>> slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of =
 Katowice and
>>>>>>>>>>> 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921, and sti=
ll these
>>>>>>>>>>> cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slau=
ghter, we can
>>>>>>>>>>> try to justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitt=
er. In 1910,
>>>>>>>>>>> 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and 66% o=
f Torun was
>>>>>>>>>>> German. Nine years later, these cities became part of Poland. S=
ame as in
>>>>>>>>>>> Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well. Still, =
nobody
>>>>>>>>>>> justifies the Germans.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying tha=
t
>>>>>>>>>>> the Germans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded=
 as German
>>>>>>>>>>> lands, and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian =
population to
>>>>>>>>>>> central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, th=
e
>>>>>>>>>>> discrimination of German minority of Poland was so severe that =
85% Germans
>>>>>>>>>>> had left Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses t=
his as a
>>>>>>>>>>> justification for the events of WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any
>>>>>>>>>>> other nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for=
 Jedwabne,
>>>>>>>>>>> Pawlokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielk=
opolski in
>>>>>>>>>>> 1919. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never =
be excused.
>>>>>>>>>>> And those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

--0016364c7d9176cc1d0471b07fe1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

&quot;I think you got it backwards - it&#39;s Denikin and then Wrangel who
refused to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more
ambigous on the subject matter).&quot;<br>Actually Denikin agreed at last t=
o Polish state-but with the border on Bug, which Pilsudski refused and allo=
wed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies.<br>As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a=
 dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they offered no resources, no infrast=
ructure, no transportation, no Polish majority almost anywhere, no educatio=
n, but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, hostile population and constant co=
nflict with Russia. Poland had developed agriculture already in Wielkopolsk=
a and Mazowsze, it didn&#39;t need any anymore at that price. Besides-they =
required constant police supervision, where the breeding ground of resistan=
ce against Poland, drained money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not=
 build its position on agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its a=
rmy and modern transporation.<br>
You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:<br><a href=3D"http://www.ma=
proom.org/00/31/index.php">http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php</a><br><b=
r>They show how big wasteland the Kresy were.&nbsp; It makes me cry that Po=
les lost so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their=
 nationalism.<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=BFytkown=
ik radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com"=
>rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I think you got it backwards - it&#39;s Denikin and then Wrangel who refuse=
d to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the =
subject matter). The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Curzon =
line vs. Silesia) could actually have been made. Pilsudski was understandab=
ly afraid that compromising on either would mean a loss of both. I think he=
 was right in that regard.elo<br>

<br>From a purely economic point of view I&#39;m not so sure that the coal =
of Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and especially=
 commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry, coal, s=
teel and all that. But that&#39;s only because Britain, which was the first=
 to industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on services. B=
elgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricultural pro=
ducts. France&#39;s &quot;industrialization&quot; (a misnomer) was in good =
part agriculture driven. So I don&#39;t think that getting the mineral rich=
 Silesia instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something worth fight=
ing for -&nbsp; on economic grounds.<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
olobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">

I don&#39;t have illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative&nbsp; an=
d more part of Entente would not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-w=
hich is an accusation oft given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperat=
ion and military thrust when WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a=
 stronger Russia would be needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW =
with Germany. A Poland largely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be =
a richer, safer and better Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federate a=
nyway. And of course what is usually forgotten is that Endeks as supporters=
 of neoslavism were more supportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. But as=
 you know it&#39;s AH today.<br>


<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=BFytkownik r=
adek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<div><div></div>=
<div>
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
It&#39;s certainly possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was t=
oo little too late - still, I think he had the right idea though possibly a=
t the wrong time. His ideas though should&#39;ve been given a chance and no=
t have been torpodoed by Dmowski&#39;s people who were motivated much more =
by &quot;racism&quot; (if that&#39;s an appropriate term here) which eventu=
ally resulted in the pacifications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any ki=
nd of clearly defined national interest.  I think you&#39;re giving Dmowski=
 too much credit here - it&#39;s not like the guy was a big supporter of Uk=
rainian independence.<br>



<br>But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the integ=
ration with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the Jasienica v=
iew I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away from Western Europ=
e. But Pilsudski came 500+ years after Grunwald and he had to deal with the=
 reality he inherited - it was as unrealistic to try and turn back the cloc=
k at that point as it was to try to form a &quot;Poland for Poles&quot;. Al=
l things considered I think that inegrationist/multicultural program was th=
e most realistic of all available options.<div>


<div></div><div><br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
olobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">



Oh, to me personally Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish thought and=
 all of ills that Kresy brough(I for example believe that the fall of Polan=
d started with integration with Lithuania, bringing Lithuanian magnats into=
 power, and the economic system of feudal plantations of Ukrainians as base=
 of Polish economy). Would much prefer a scenario after WW1 where in which =
Poland is smaller but more western oriented with ethnic Polish territories =
in Silesia, Warmia, and Dmowski helped the White Russians win, which result=
ed in Central European alliance of slavic countries under aegis of Federate=
d Russian Republic. But that is Alternate History alltogether :D Still I re=
spect you as a person and your views. I just don&#39;t think they are corre=
ct. I read the diaries or opinions of Poles from early XX century and they =
would not allow for any coexistance with Ukrainian or Belarussian minorites=
.<br>




<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=BFytkownik r=
adek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<div><div></div>=
<div>
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Well, I know some crazy people too.<br>Heh, it sounds like you really took =
your Jasienica (who of course was part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart.=
 I dunno, it&#39;s just a big &quot;What If&quot; - interesting to muse abo=
ut but just not applicable to analyzing history as she really happened. My =
big &quot;what if&quot; is what if the interwar Pilsudski Poland could have=
 transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic, tolerant state like the US =
that knew how to gain from its inherent multiculturalism rather than lettin=
g itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalries which only benefited its en=
emies/neighbors. I&#39;m pretty aware that I&#39;m only &quot;Polish&quot; =
by a few accidents of history. This is also why I&#39;m not a big fan of th=
e Endecja derived movements of today.<div>




<div></div><div><br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
olobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">





Really I know quite a few people who would or do.<br>As to Przemysl it was =
originally part of Ukrainian state and unfortunetely will remain a sore poi=
nt in future relations.<br>I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 =
would regain Kr=F3lewiec and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, w=
hile leaving all conquered Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not pe=
rfect.<br>






<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/22 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yah=
oo.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div><div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0p=
t 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">






<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">






<div>Nobody serious&nbsp;in Poland demands former Polish territories called=
 Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there are Ukrainia=
n organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hope you kno=
w about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Poland.</div>






<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b=
> wrote:<br></div>
</div><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding=
-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><div><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<br>To: &q=
uot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br></div>Date: Friday,=
 August 21, 2009, 5:12 PM<div>






<div></div><div><br><br>
<div>There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in Ukrai=
ne.<br><br>As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by=
 rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once taken ov=
er by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hate speec=
h of certain kresowiacy.<br>






<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian policit=
ians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russians, by erecting mo=
numents to and praising&nbsp;people whom the Poles regard as murderers. Am =
I right or not?</div>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>BTW do you know who is main ally of a&nbsp;German pro-Nazi National De=
mocratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here <a href=3D"http://www.natvan.com/=
national-vanguard/117/ndp.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html</a>&nbsp;and here <a href=3D"h=
ttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg" rel=3D"nofollow" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg</a>=
</div>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nof=
ollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.m=
c328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<div><br>Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<=
br>To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>






</div>Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>&quot;It&#39;s a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusi=
on that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and e=
ven a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himsel=
f was a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also wr=
itten on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.<br>






<br>That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that kresowiacy w=
ork for the benefit or Russia and that society has never been screened well=
 for Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin&#39;s puppets like the seperatis=
ts from Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters of support to kresowia=
cy. <br>






You know the saying &quot;<i>You Will Know Them</i> By Their <i>Fruits</i>&=
quot;<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=BFytkownik radek=
 szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulg=
a@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<br>







<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">It&#39;s a quite =
long jump from what you present to the conclusion that the Volhunian AK was=
 acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger jump to the imp=
lication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet agent - parti=
cularly since at least his daughter has also written on NKVD and communist =
crimes in Volhynia.<br>






<br>As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn&#39;t =
be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of AK units =
&quot;revealed&quot; themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole &quot;a=
lly of our allies&quot; world view (this is why NSZ, even though they playe=
d a far more minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role =
in the fighting with the communists after the war). But I think you&#39;re =
jumping to conclusions here, before the actual research can come
 out.<br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc3=
28.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>&quot;Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that =
the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it&#39;s poss=
ible but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders&quot;<br></div>







<div>
<div></div>
<div>The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. =
The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates=
 that this was very extensive and widespread.<br>I can look for more detail=
ed data later but for now:<br>






<br><a href=3D"http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405" r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print=
.aspx?id=3D68405</a><br><br>
<div><i><b>W swojej ksi=B1=BFce &bdquo;Miecz i tarcza komunizmu&rdquo; pisz=
e pan, =BFe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=
=B3a to silna infiltracja?</b></i></div>
<div><i>Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=EApu d=
o sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie jest tylko pr=
oblem sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polskiego pa=
=F1stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunistycznych=
, gdzie podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=EAcie =
o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=
=BFe ich skuteczno=B6=E6, zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To, =BFe polska be=
zpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =B3atwo &bdquo;oczy=B6ci=B3y&rdquo; teren Polski z=
 ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiadomo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA w jaki=B6 op=
=F3r, to =B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=
=B1 skal=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6 skuteczne. </i></div>






<br><a href=3D"http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykl=
y-czlowiek.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.redakcja.pl/=
Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html</a><br><i>Machcewicz =
=B6wietnie
 pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne podzia=B3y sceny politycznej dezorgan=
izowa=B3y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=B3a infiltracja =B6rodowi=
sk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej strony, na czym polega=B3a=
 zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy obozem demokrat=F3w, sanacj=B1 i narodowcami &=
ndash; rywalizacja, kt=F3ra prowadzi=B3a do zbrodni i samos=B1d=F3w.<br>






</i><a href=3D"http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_hi=
storie_polski_od_nowa.htm" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ni=
niwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm</a=
><br>







<div><i><font face=3D"Arial"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family=
: Arial;">A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? </span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></i>=
</div>






<i><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><font face=3D"Arial=
">Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich =
w=B3adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=B3ywy. Wykorzystywali =
to, =BFe AK z czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemi=
e ostatecznie nie podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zgodnych z niemieckimi =
interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja &quot;Burza&q=
uot; z powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko jedna =
strona - Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 pytanie, czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, a je=
=BFeli tak, to w jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na to, =BFe Warszawa akurat 1=
 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie mog=B3a=
by si=EA okaza=E6 szokuj=B1ca.
 </font></span></i><br>
<div><br><br>&quot;They just urged people to leave their houses, and these =
stupid Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault.&quot;<b=
r></div>Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn=
 with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don&=
#39;t even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance. <br>







<div><br>&nbsp;&quot;And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole&quot; </di=
v>
<div>I am a Pole not a<i> kresowiak </i>who is more interested in dreams of=
 owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being un=
der Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in m=
udflats of Kresy, rather&nbsp; about good of Poland. Currently I can think =
of no other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Pol=
ish state the <i>kresowiacy. </i>The support they receive from Putin and th=
e amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they working for-ev=
en if they are as Lenin put it &quot;useful idiots&quot;.<br>






So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to <i>kresowiak</i> if tha=
t&#39;s what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other=
 Poles just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their =
game. The kresowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people a=
nd Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once o=
pressed or dreaming
 about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.<br></div><br>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<div>&quot;Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the =
Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; K=
atowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;an=
d still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Sl=
aughter, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons t=
o be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz,=
 and&nbsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities=
 became part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the mi=
nority as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.&quot;<br>






<br></div>Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to =
which Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no =
matter how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not =
Polish but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.<br>






<br><br></div>
<div>&quot;With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse th=
e killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale&quot;<br></div>Li=
kewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.=
=20
<div><br><br>&quot;What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian state=
d that the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pa=
ck the stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any=
 better? Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the =
Latvians from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them t=
o Siberia?&quot;<br>






<br></div>Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in Vo=
lhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.<br><br><br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.<=
/div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </div=
>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</di=
v>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </div>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the Nazi s=
laughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowic=
e and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and stil=
l these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughte=
r, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be b=
itter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&n=
bsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities becam=
e part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority=
 as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</div>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</div>







<div><br>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</div>







<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br></div></div>
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