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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:54:28 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being
	counted as expelled: http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf Page
	15 of the pdf file(25 in text): *Do strat związanych z wypę dzeniami
	zostali zaliczeni równie¿ zamordowani niemieccy Żydzi oraz inne
	ofiary nazizmu, które potraktowano jako niewyjaśnione przypadki.*
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Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found information
	about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germans
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	Content preview:  Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being
	counted as expelled: http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf Page
	15 of the pdf file(25 in text): *Do strat związanych z wypę dzeniami
	zostali zaliczeni równie¿ zamordowani niemieccy Żydzi oraz inne
	ofiary nazizmu, które potraktowano jako niewyjaśnione przypadki.*
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Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as expelled:
http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf

Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):
*Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99
dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =C5=BByd=
zi oraz inne
ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przypadki.*


W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com=
>napisa=C5=82:

> Hi Radek,
>
> Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ?
> Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
> Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english
> translation:
> http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291
>
> *This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being wel=
l
> above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for
> example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische Ve=
rluste im
> Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):
>
>   "The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the
> immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and
> similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or
> bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the even=
ts
> historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches
> Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical search se=
rvice did a
> lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitativel=
y
> assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result c=
an
> be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been kil=
led
> during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective
> territories who had died during military service.
>
>    These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integr=
al
> part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counti=
ng
> of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance wh=
ich
> concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion
> territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed
> that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last
> years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as th=
e
> studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victim=
s
> can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an
> unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the
> previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always b=
e
> said, however, that the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that the death of thes=
e people
> had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
> *
> I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2 milio=
n
> mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost the
> article where it was written.
>
> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.c=
om>
> napisa=C5=82:
>
> > Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so could you look at
> > Skapperod's latest argument
> > [
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II=
#Overmans
> ]?
> > He's trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million figure h=
as
> to
> > be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state that th=
is
> is
> > only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying to tak=
e
> one
> > single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all there is to i=
t.
> >
> > Radek
> >
> >
> > 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by politicians :
> >>
> >> http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html
> >> "Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia i wy=
siedlenia do swoich
> >> dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i liczb=
y, kt=C3=B3re dla
> >> nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne"
> >>
> >> Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be better
> >> if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that knows
> >> Polish and good add this source.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
> >> > I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and if the
> >> > numbers
> >> > were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article.
> >> >
> >> > Here is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help you and
> can
> >> > be
> >> > added as well to the sources needed
> >> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
> >
>
>

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Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as expelled:<=
br><a href=3D"http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf">http://www.pis=
m.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf</a><br><br>Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in te=
xt):<br>
<i>Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99<br>dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=
=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =C5=BBydzi oraz inne<br>ofiary nazizmu,=
 kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przypadki.</i><br><br><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molob=
o Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=C5=82:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Radek, <br><br=
>Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ? A=
nyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying. <br>
Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english trans=
lation:<br>
<a href=3D"http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291" target=3D"_=
blank">http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291</a><br><br><i>Th=
is estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well abo=
ve the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for example=
 by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische Verluste im=
 Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):<br>

<br> =C2=A0 &quot;The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germ=
ans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing sold=
iers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civi=
lians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed t=
he events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches=
 Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical search ser=
vice did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quan=
titatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The=
 result can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans ha=
d been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the re=
spective territories who had died during military service.<br>

<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0These casualty figures, however, which for decades have b=
een an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result n=
ot of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a popula=
tion balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants o=
f the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefo=
re be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events.=
 In the last years,<b> however, these statements have been increasingly que=
stioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the nu=
mber of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons</b> - whic=
h is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarte=
r of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could a=
lways be said, however, that<b> the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that the dea=
th of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be c=
larified.&quot;</b><br>

</i><br>I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2=
 milion mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost=
 the article where it was written.<br><br>W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=
=BCytkownik radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82:<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; Hey Molobo, my German&#39;s next to non existent so could you look at<=
br>&gt; Skapperod&#39;s latest argument<br>&gt; [<a href=3D"http://en.wikip=
edia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans" target=
=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_Wo=
rld_War_II#Overmans</a>]?<br>

&gt; He&#39;s trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million fig=
ure has to<br>&gt; be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearl=
y state that this is<br>&gt; only part of the picture. It looks to me like =
Skapperod&#39;s trying to take one<br>

&gt; single adjustment out of many and pretend that that&#39;s all there is=
 to it.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Radek<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molo=
bo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;<br>

&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by =
politicians :<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wr=
oclaw/1,35762,5205417.html" target=3D"_blank">http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wrocl=
aw/1,35762,5205417.html</a><br>

&gt;&gt; &quot;Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dz=
enia i wysiedlenia do swoich<br>&gt;&gt; dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedst=
awiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i liczby, kt=C3=B3re dla<br>&gt;&gt; nich s=C4=
=85 akurat wygodne&quot;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be bett=
er<br>
&gt;&gt; if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that kn=
ows<br>&gt;&gt; Polish and good add this source.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br=
>&gt;&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>

&gt;&gt; &gt; I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and=
 if the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; numbers<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; were influenced by politi=
cians in Expulsion of Germans article.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; He=
re is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help you and can<br>

&gt;&gt; &gt; be<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; added as well to the sources needed<br>&g=
t;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiar=
y.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_of=
iary.html</a><br>

&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; _____________________________________=
__________<br>&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedomet=
er.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt=
; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wiki=
pedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>&gt; <a hre=
f=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>

&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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