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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 18:08:35 +0300
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 17:02, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:

> I left  school before the EU propaganda begun, I can only tell about
> university experience, where there is a lot of EU material studied, that is
> one-sided and completely uncritical to the entity.


As far as I understand, it depends largely of the university in question,
and the course.  Relations courses taken by future diplomats tend to gloss
over criticism more than courses in economic analysis or history.  And
courses related to social policy are an interesting beast.


> Also there is a lot of manipulation-for example due to fact that our
> university received grants from Germany we were indoctrinated and introduced
> to such organizations as Konrad Adeneauer Fundation(
> http://www.kas.de/proj/home/home/48/8/index.html) that propagate view of
> Germany as peacefull, idyllic state that has totally rejected its Nazi past
> and dealt with Nazis and only wants to love Poland(if only those pesky
> Polish 'nationalists' would be gone). Of course that propaganda falls apart
> when you learn history-in this case-that Adenauer , restored Nazis to
> political life and for example sought to obtain nuclear weapons for Germany,
> while rejecting Polish border.
>

Did he restore people advocating Nazi views, or people who had been members
of the Nazi Party in a previous life?  They're quite different concepts.

(I know, I know -- he did a bit of both.  But the point is still important.)

In European-style bureaucracy, policymaking and management are largely
separate.  Politicians make policy and stay out of management (for the most
part), and bureaucrats administer big and small systems and stay out of
politics (for the most part).  An important part of this system is that the
professional bureaucrats are skilled administrators with often decades of
experience, and can manage government systems even if they don't match their
personal preferences; and politicians are skilled negoatiators with all the
fresh (and often silly or just plain weird) ideas who can not necessarily
manage a mom-and-pop store.  Many bureaucrats remain reusable even as
radical changes of policy as the crash of Nazi Germany.  (Of course,
bureaucrats with actual war crimes to their name -- such as Adolf Eichmann
-- do not.)

In American-style bureaucracy, things can be different.  (In a simplified
sense, there are more politicians and less bureaucrats.  In many states, for
example, it's routine for people to directly elect all kinds of local
officials from Chief Dogcatcher to Attorney General, and in some states,
even judges are directly elected.  Occasionally, it can lead to election of
as colourful characters as Ajatollah Roy Moore, known largely for the
Alabamakabala <http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/>.)  This
can sometimes cause major misunderstandings; an educational example is Bush
the Younger's aggressive cleanup of the bureaucracies of Iraq.  He
considered all the Ba'athists political and had them fired; but by doing so,
he got rid of most of the skilled bureaucrats, leading to numerous
government failures in the newly understaffed and mis-staffed Iraq's
government agencies.  Bush's underlings ended up quietly rehiring many of
the previous administrators even if Ba'athists, as long as they didn't have
too criminal a history.

In totalitarian-style bureaucracies, things can also be different, but in a
different way.  Totalitarian governments tend to go for "ideological
purity", which often means that in order to even be considered for a
bureaucrat position, one must be a member of The One True Party, at least
nominally.  History shows us that even in systems that practice this kind of
nomenclatura, policymakers and administrators do not have much overlap;
probably because of difference of psychological profiles that fit these
jobs.  (This does not appear to prevent bureaucrats from becoming
politicians or vice versa, but it is not very common.)  Even so, it will be
harder for an outside observer to tell ones from the others, because both
look kind of like apparatchiks.

-- 
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 17:02, Molobo Molobo <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I left=C2=A0 school before the EU propaganda begun, I can only tell about u=
niversity experience, where there is a lot of EU material studied, that is =
one-sided and completely uncritical to the entity.</blockquote><div><br></d=
iv>
<div>As far as I understand, it depends largely of the university in questi=
on, and the course. =C2=A0Relations courses taken by future diplomats tend =
to gloss over criticism more than courses in economic analysis or history. =
=C2=A0And courses related to social policy are an interesting beast.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Also there is a lot of man=
ipulation-for example due to fact that our university received grants from =
Germany we were indoctrinated and introduced to such organizations as Konra=
d Adeneauer Fundation(<a href=3D"http://www.kas.de/proj/home/home/48/8/inde=
x.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.kas.de/proj/home/home/48/8/index.html<=
/a>) that propagate view of Germany as peacefull, idyllic state that has to=
tally rejected its Nazi past and dealt with Nazis and only wants to love Po=
land(if only those pesky Polish &#39;nationalists&#39; would be gone). Of c=
ourse that propaganda falls apart when you learn history-in this case-that =
Adenauer , restored Nazis to political life and for example sought to obtai=
n nuclear weapons for Germany, while rejecting Polish border.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Did he restore people advocating Nazi view=
s, or people who had been members of the Nazi Party in a previous life? =C2=
=A0They&#39;re quite different concepts.</div><div><br></div><div>(I know, =
I know -- he did a bit of both. =C2=A0But the point is still important.)</d=
iv>
<div><br></div><div>In European-style bureaucracy, policymaking and managem=
ent are largely separate. =C2=A0Politicians make policy and stay out of man=
agement (for the most part), and bureaucrats administer big and small syste=
ms and stay out of politics (for the most part). =C2=A0An important part of=
 this system is that the professional bureaucrats are skilled administrator=
s with often decades of experience, and can manage government systems even =
if they don&#39;t match their personal preferences; and politicians are ski=
lled negoatiators with all the fresh (and often silly or just plain weird) =
ideas who can not necessarily manage a mom-and-pop store. =C2=A0Many bureau=
crats remain reusable even as radical changes of policy as the crash of Naz=
i Germany. =C2=A0(Of course, bureaucrats with actual war crimes to their na=
me -- such as Adolf Eichmann -- do not.)</div>
<div><br></div><div>In American-style bureaucracy, things can be different.=
 =C2=A0(In a simplified sense, there are more politicians and less bureaucr=
ats. =C2=A0In many states, for example, it&#39;s routine for people to dire=
ctly elect all kinds of local officials from Chief Dogcatcher to Attorney G=
eneral, and in some states, even judges are directly elected. =C2=A0Occasio=
nally, it can lead to election of as colourful characters as Ajatollah Roy =
Moore, known largely for the <a href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/t=
en.commandments/">Alabamakabala</a>.) =C2=A0This can sometimes cause major =
misunderstandings; an educational example is Bush the Younger&#39;s aggress=
ive cleanup of the bureaucracies of Iraq. =C2=A0He considered all the Ba&#3=
9;athists political and had them fired; but by doing so, he got rid of most=
 of the skilled bureaucrats, leading to numerous government failures in the=
 newly understaffed and mis-staffed Iraq&#39;s government agencies. =C2=A0B=
ush&#39;s underlings ended up quietly rehiring many of the previous adminis=
trators even if Ba&#39;athists, as long as they didn&#39;t have too crimina=
l a history.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In totalitarian-style bureaucracies, things can also be=
 different, but in a different way. =C2=A0Totalitarian governments tend to =
go for &quot;ideological purity&quot;, which often means that in order to e=
ven be considered for a bureaucrat position, one must be a member of The On=
e True Party, at least nominally. =C2=A0History shows us that even in syste=
ms that practice this kind of nomenclatura, policymakers and administrators=
 do not have much overlap; probably because of difference of psychological =
profiles that fit these jobs. =C2=A0(This does not appear to prevent bureau=
crats from becoming politicians or vice versa, but it is not very common.) =
=C2=A0Even so, it will be harder for an outside observer to tell ones from =
the others, because both look kind of like apparatchiks.</div>
<div><br></div></div>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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