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Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 18:24:12 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  This proposal:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=prev&oldid=311970340
	* The flight and expulsion of Germans (German: Die Vertreibung or
	Flucht
	und Vertreibung) was the mass migration of German nationals from the
	former eastern territories of Germany and ethnic Germans from
	territories across Europe to the western and central areas of Germany
	towards the end and in the aftermath of World War II, when Allied
	administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one.
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Subject: Re: [WPM] To Jacurek/Expulsions article-two points
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	Content preview:  This proposal:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=prev&oldid=311970340
	* The flight and expulsion of Germans (German: Die Vertreibung or Flucht
	und Vertreibung) was the mass migration of German nationals from the
	former eastern territories of Germany and ethnic Germans from
	territories across Europe to the western and central areas of Germany
	towards the end and in the aftermath of World War II, when Allied
	administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one. [...] 
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This proposal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after=
_World_War_II&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D311970340
*
The flight and expulsion of Germans (German: Die Vertreibung or Flucht und
Vertreibung) was the mass migration of German nationals from the former
eastern territories of Germany and ethnic Germans from territories across
Europe to the western and central areas of Germany towards the end and in
the aftermath of World War II, when Allied administration and occupation
replaced the former Nazi German one.

*Is a blatant attempt of sneaky revisionism if I ever seen one. First it
places Allies liberating their own countries(France for example, or even
Poland) on equal term with Nazi German occupation(*when Allied
administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one-*what the
heck does this even mean ? That Europe was some neutral territory that
switched from hands to hands ?). Secondly it tries to portay the Nazi rule
of Europe as something that can be named "administration"-a very
whitewashing term. Third (although perhaps most important)-it tries to
portay removal of German colonists as "migration of ethnic Germans".
Fourth-it gives a POV term to parts of Germany that were annexed from Polan=
d
and Czechs as "eastern territories of Germany"-see the article in wiki on
this term- it describes those as including Pozna=C5=84 and whole Wielkopols=
ka
region.

A classic example how seemingly innocent proposals by Skapperod are in fact
demonstrations of  subtle revisionist propaganda.

Counterarguments:
He states:*
*"That these areas were occupied by Nazi Germany during the war is not a
distinct feature of these areas, nearly all Europe was."
Counterargument:the areas from which Germans were removed were in majority
those were the Germans implemented a policy of extermination and racist
definitions of Slavs and others as subhuman. The areas in question were
subjected to heavy Germanisation and settlement. Thus they differ from
situation in Western Europe. As such Nazi occupation is a valid point to
bring in the lead.
"The Nazi German occupation had ended before the expulsion started"
The Nazi occupation was the reason for expulsions. Also the article deals
with flight as well and those happened well within the operation of
occupation.




2009/9/4 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

> That should be restored as it reliably sourced. However this is not
> connected to the subject I mentioned.
>
> 2009/9/4 Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
>
> One should also check this out:
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DSoviet_war_crimes&curid=3D47=
51135&diff=3D311767110&oldid=3D311764778
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I see that you are engaged in debate there.
>>> It might be worth mentioning that those events are often named populati=
on
>>> transfer rather then ethnic cleansing or genocide
>>>
>>> National minorities and the European nation-states system=E2=80=8E Jenn=
ifer
>>> Jackson Preece - 1998 Population transfer Population transfers were als=
o
>>> advocated and ... approved the forced transfer of 6.5 million ethnic Ge=
rmans
>>> from Czechoslovakia, Poland,
>>>
>>>
>>> Expelling the Germans: British opinion and post-1945 population transfe
>>> Matthew James Frank - 2008
>>>
>>>
>>> Europe and German unification=E2=80=8E Renata Fritsch-Bournaz 1992 The =
expulsion
>>> of Germans, who still numbered in the millions, ... burden of this
>>> unprecedented population transfer was for the most part put on the West
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The article completely avoids mentioning colonists and occupational
>>> administration that were part of those removed:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_nazi_germany#Germa=
n_colonization_and_settlement
>>>
>>>
>>> Which is about 400,000-500.000 personal for occupation and about 630.00=
0
>>> colonists in annexed territories. Alltogether 2 milion Germans by the e=
nd of
>>> the war in all Polish territories. All this  is sourced in link above a=
nd
>>> can be copied.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>>
>

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<br>This proposal:<br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=
=3DTalk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=
=3D311970340">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk:Expulsion_of=
_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=3D311970340</a><br>
<i><br>The flight and expulsion of Germans (German: Die Vertreibung or Fluc=
ht
und Vertreibung) was the mass migration of German nationals from the
former eastern territories of Germany and ethnic Germans from
territories across Europe to the western and central areas of Germany
towards the end and in the aftermath of World War II, when Allied
administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one.<br><br><=
/i>Is a blatant attempt of sneaky revisionism if I ever seen one. First it =
places Allies liberating their own countries(France for example, or even Po=
land) on equal term with Nazi German occupation(<i>when Allied
administration and occupation replaced the former Nazi German one-</i>what =
the heck does this even mean ? That Europe was some neutral territory that =
switched from hands to hands ?). Secondly it tries to portay the Nazi rule =
of Europe as something that can be named &quot;administration&quot;-a very =
whitewashing term. Third (although perhaps most important)-it tries to port=
ay removal of German colonists as &quot;migration of ethnic Germans&quot;. =
Fourth-it gives a POV term to parts of Germany that were annexed from Polan=
d and Czechs as &quot;eastern territories of Germany&quot;-see the article =
in wiki on this term- it describes those as including Pozna=C5=84 and whole=
 Wielkopolska region.<br>

<br>A classic example how seemingly innocent proposals by Skapperod are in =
fact demonstrations of=C2=A0 subtle revisionist propaganda.<br><br>Countera=
rguments:<br>He states:<i><br></i>&quot;That these areas were occupied by N=
azi Germany during the war is not a distinct feature of these areas, nearly=
 all Europe was.&quot;<br>
Counterargument:the areas from which Germans were removed were in majority =
those were the Germans implemented a policy of extermination and racist def=
initions of Slavs and others as subhuman. The areas in question were subjec=
ted to heavy Germanisation and settlement. Thus they differ from situation =
in Western Europe. As such Nazi occupation is a valid point to bring in the=
 lead.<br>
&quot;The Nazi German occupation had ended before the expulsion started&quo=
t;<br>The Nazi occupation was the reason for expulsions. Also the article d=
eals with flight as well and those happened well within the operation of oc=
cupation.<br>
<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/4 Molobo Molobo <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">That should be re=
stored as it reliably sourced. However this is not connected to the subject=
 I mentioned.<br>

<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/4 Andrei Dombay <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:wikibiophys@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wikibiophys@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div><div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">One should also c=
heck this out:<br><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=
=3DSoviet_war_crimes&amp;curid=3D4751135&amp;diff=3D311767110&amp;oldid=3D3=
11764778" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DSov=
iet_war_crimes&amp;curid=3D4751135&amp;diff=3D311767110&amp;oldid=3D3117647=
78</a><br>



<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div>On Fri, Sep 4, 2009=
 at 1:18 PM, Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px sol=
id rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>=
<div></div><div>
I see that you are engaged in debate there.<br>It might be worth mentioning=
 that those events are often named population transfer rather then ethnic c=
leansing or genocide<br><br><p>National minorities and the European nation-=
states system=E2=80=8E Jennifer
Jackson Preece - 1998 Population transfer Population transfers were
also advocated and ... approved the forced transfer of 6.5 million
ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland,</p>
<p><br>
Expelling the Germans: British opinion and post-1945 population transfe Mat=
thew James Frank - 2008</p>
<p><br>
Europe and German unification=E2=80=8E Renata Fritsch-Bournaz 1992 The
expulsion of Germans, who still numbered in the millions, ... burden of
this unprecedented population transfer was for the most part put on the
West</p><p><br></p><p><br>The article completely avoids mentioning colonist=
s and occupational administration that were part of those removed:</p><p><a=
 href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_nazi_germany#=
German_colonization_and_settlement" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.o=
rg/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_nazi_germany#German_colonization_and_settle=
ment</a></p>




<p><br></p><p>Which is about 400,000-500.000 personal for occupation and ab=
out 630.000 colonists in annexed territories. Alltogether 2 milion Germans =
by the end of the war in all Polish territories. All this=C2=A0 is sourced =
in link above and can be copied.<br>




</p>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
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=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
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</blockquote></div><br>

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