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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:51:33 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  "At least the Germans are aware of their guilt, "
	Germans are aware what to say in public and what to tell Poles. Only a
	very marginal group of them believes in any German guilt, besides
	Holocaust. Out of experience most Germans are either ignorant or don't
	care about crimes towards Poles and the East, and believe Poland is to
	blame for WW2. The Russians whatever crimes SU has committed have no
	reason to feel as much guilt as Germans as they didn't elect Stalin, and
	neither they were planning to exterminate whole nations. Interestingly
	I
	noticed that our media are trying to stir up a lot of attacks against
	falsfication of history by Russia before IIWW while totally ignoring
	falsification of history in Germany Must not spoil the "happy EU
	family"
	I guess. * this is an interesting article by Rafal Ziemkiewicz. He
	argues that Pact Drax-Doumenc-Voroshilov, would have been as disastrous
	for Eastern Europe,* [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Interesting article (in Polish)
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	Content preview:  "At least the Germans are aware of their guilt, "
	Germans are aware what to say in public and what to tell Poles. Only a
	very marginal group of them believes in any German guilt, besides
	Holocaust. Out of experience most Germans are either ignorant or don't
	care about crimes towards Poles and the East, and believe Poland is to
	blame for WW2. The Russians whatever crimes SU has committed have no
	reason to feel as much guilt as Germans as they didn't elect Stalin, and
	neither they were planning to exterminate whole nations. Interestingly I
	noticed that our media are trying to stir up a lot of attacks against
	falsfication of history by Russia before IIWW while totally ignoring
	falsification of history in Germany Must not spoil the "happy EU family"
	I guess. * this is an interesting article by Rafal Ziemkiewicz. He
	argues that Pact Drax-Doumenc-Voroshilov, would have been as disastrous
	for Eastern Europe,* [...] 
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"At least the Germans are aware of their guilt, "
Germans are aware what to say in public and what to tell Poles. Only a very
marginal group of them believes in any German guilt, besides Holocaust. Out
of experience most Germans are either ignorant or don't care about crimes
towards Poles and the East, and believe Poland is to blame for WW2. The
Russians whatever crimes SU has committed have no reason to feel as much
guilt as Germans as they didn't elect Stalin, and neither they were planning
to exterminate whole nations.
Interestingly I noticed that our media are trying to stir up a lot of
attacks against falsfication of history by Russia before IIWW while totally
ignoring falsification of history in Germany Must not spoil the "happy EU
family" I guess.
*
this is an interesting article by Rafal Ziemkiewicz. He argues that Pact
Drax-Doumenc-Voroshilov, would have been as disastrous for Eastern Europe,*

Ziemkiewicz is a good SF writer, but not a good historian ;] Had such pact
been in place, there wouldn't be any IIWW, as Germany would be defeated
quite quickly without economic assistance from SU. Interestingly for us such
pact would produce a better outcome then OTL-with less extermination of
Poland and Polish population due to genocidal German policies. Not to
mention Stalin could lose his power to the liberal-minded rapist Beria(yup
Beria despite his personal evils was interestingly liberal compared to
Stalin in his view towards Central and Eastern Europe and economy).

2009/8/23 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>

>  Interesting. Also, check this
>
> http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,6948804,Na_frontach__W_armiach__I_w_cywilu.html
>
> One-third of Poles say now that somebody from their family died during the
> war. 11% claim their relatives were killed by the Soviets, 5% - by the
> Ukrainians, and the remaining 84% - by the Germans.
>
> Piotrus, article linked by you has been translated into English, here
>
> http://wyborcza.pl/1,86871,6949415,The_Ill_Fated_Pact.html
>
> At least the Germans are aware of their guilt, and the Russians, as always,
> are 70 years behind them.
>
> Furthermore, this is an interesting article by Rafal Ziemkiewicz. He argues
> that Pact Drax-Doumenc-Voroshilov, would have been as disastrous for Eastern
> Europe, as Molotov-Ribbentrop.
> http://www.rp.pl/artykul/61991,352332_Z_dziejow__europejskiego__handlu.html
>
> If non-Polish speakers are interested, I will translate.
>
> Tymek
>
> --- On *Sat, 8/22/09, Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] Interesting article (in Polish)
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 1:05 AM
>
>
> Piotr Konieczny wrote:
> > Check out an article which appeared in the Gazeta Wyborcza "Nieszczesny
> > Pakt" ("Ill-fated Pact") in connection with the 70th anniversary of the
> > Rippentrop-Molotov Pact of August 23, 1939. The article discusses a
> > recent declaration issued by 140 German intellectuals - which is
> > probably notable and would make a good DYK.
>
> Opsie :)
>
> http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,6949247,Nieszczesny_pakt.html
>
>
> --
> Piotr Konieczny
>
> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
> theory."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=folks@wikipedometer.net>
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&quot;At least the Germans are aware of their guilt, &quot;<br>Germans are =
aware what to say in public and what to tell Poles. Only a very marginal gr=
oup of them believes in any German guilt, besides Holocaust. Out of experie=
nce most Germans are either ignorant or don&#39;t care about crimes towards=
 Poles and the East, and believe Poland is to blame for WW2. The Russians w=
hatever crimes SU has committed have no reason to feel as much guilt as Ger=
mans as they didn&#39;t elect Stalin, and neither they were planning to ext=
erminate whole nations.<br>
Interestingly I noticed that our media are trying to stir up a lot of attac=
ks against falsfication of history by Russia before IIWW while totally igno=
ring falsification of history in Germany Must not spoil the &quot;happy EU =
family&quot; I guess.<br>
<i><br>this is an interesting article by Rafal Ziemkiewicz. He argues that
Pact Drax-Doumenc-Voroshilov, would have been as disastrous for Eastern
Europe,</i><br><br>Ziemkiewicz is a good SF writer, but not a good historia=
n ;] Had such pact been in place, there wouldn&#39;t be any IIWW, as German=
y would be defeated quite quickly without economic assistance from SU. Inte=
restingly for us such pact would produce a better outcome then OTL-with les=
s extermination of Poland and Polish population due to genocidal German pol=
icies. Not to mention Stalin could lose his power to the liberal-minded rap=
ist Beria(yup Beria despite his personal evils was interestingly liberal co=
mpared to Stalin in his view towards Central and Eastern Europe and economy=
).<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
2009/8/23 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@=
yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 2=
04); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">

<div>Interesting. Also, check this </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,6948804,Na_frontach__W_armiach__=
I_w_cywilu.html" target=3D"_blank">http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,6948804,Na_fr=
ontach__W_armiach__I_w_cywilu.html</a></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>One-third of Poles say now that somebody from their family died during=
 the war. 11% claim their relatives were killed by the Soviets, 5% - by the=
 Ukrainians, and the remaining 84% - by the Germans.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Piotrus, article linked by you has been translated into English, here<=
/div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://wyborcza.pl/1,86871,6949415,The_Ill_Fated_Pact.html"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://wyborcza.pl/1,86871,6949415,The_Ill_Fated_Pact.ht=
ml</a></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>At least the Germans are aware of their guilt, and the Russians, as al=
ways, are 70 years behind them.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Furthermore, this is an interesting article by Rafal Ziemkiewicz. He a=
rgues that Pact Drax-Doumenc-Voroshilov, would have been as disastrous for =
Eastern Europe, as Molotov-Ribbentrop.</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/61991,352332_Z_dziejow__europejski=
ego__handlu.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/61991,352332_Z=
_dziejow__europejskiego__handlu.html</a></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>If non-Polish speakers are interested, I will translate.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Sat, 8/22/09, Piotr Konieczny <i>&lt;piokon@pos=
t.pl&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Piotr Konieczny &lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;<b=
r>Subject: Re: [WPM] Interesting article (in Polish)<br>To: &quot;Wikipedia=
 statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"=
_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>

Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 1:05 AM<div><div></div><div><br><br>
<div>Piotr Konieczny wrote:<br>&gt; Check out an article which appeared in =
the Gazeta Wyborcza &quot;Nieszczesny <br>&gt; Pakt&quot; (&quot;Ill-fated =
Pact&quot;) in connection with the 70th anniversary of the <br>&gt; Rippent=
rop-Molotov Pact of August 23, 1939. The article discusses a <br>

&gt; recent declaration issued by 140 German intellectuals - which is <br>&=
gt; probably notable and would make a good DYK.<br><br>Opsie :)<br><br><a h=
ref=3D"http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,6949247,Nieszczesny_pakt.html" target=3D"=
_blank">http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,6949247,Nieszczesny_pakt.html</a><br>

<br><br>-- <br>Piotr Konieczny<br><br>&quot;The problem about Wikipedia is,=
 that it just works in reality, not in <br>theory.&quot;<br><br>___________=
____________________________________<br>Wikipedia statistics discussion lis=
t<br>

<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedomet=
er.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://=
wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://=
wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>

</div></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>

      <br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
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<br></blockquote></div><br>

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