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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:03:52 +0300
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From: Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 06:43,
	<PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:
	> In a message dated 8/17/2009 11:09:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >
	jacurek@yahoo.com writes: > >
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jacurek#Nane_of_Wilno > > We
	should discuss whether it's appropriate to mention Wilno in the lead >
	of Vilnius, Reval in the lead of Tallinn, etc. Unfortunately, even many
	> materials published today on WWII still use the old names. (Also
	Libau
	for > Liepaja in Latvia, etc...) They can be noted as common English
	usage "prior > to independence", perhaps? > [...] 
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	Content preview:  On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 06:43, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:
	> In a message dated 8/17/2009 11:09:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >
	jacurek@yahoo.com writes: > >
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jacurek#Nane_of_Wilno > > We
	should discuss whether it's appropriate to mention Wilno in the lead >
	of Vilnius, Reval in the lead of Tallinn, etc. Unfortunately, even many
	> materials published today on WWII still use the old names. (Also Libau
	for > Liepaja in Latvia, etc...) They can be noted as common English
	usage "prior > to independence", perhaps? > [...] 
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On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 06:43, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:

>  In a message dated 8/17/2009 11:09:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> jacurek@yahoo.com writes:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jacurek#Nane_of_Wilno
>
>  We should discuss whether it's appropriate to mention Wilno in the lead
> of Vilnius, Reval in the lead of Tallinn, etc. Unfortunately, even many
> materials published today on WWII still use the old names. (Also Libau fo=
r
> Liepaja in Latvia, etc...) They can be noted as common English usage "pri=
or
> to independence", perhaps?
>

I believe these are all appropriate.  In most cases, they're one and the
same name, pronounced and spelt in slightly different ways to conform with
customs of different languages.  Before the era of fast communication and
large dictionaries (or encyclop=C3=A6dias) based on keywords, it was a stan=
dard
practice.

Usually, the "old name of historic period X" is merely the name preferred b=
y
people who ruled the city in this historic period.  So, I'd say "Vilnius
(Polish: Wilno) is a city in Lithuania ...".

Sometimes, different names have different etymologies; for example, Tallinn=
,
Reval and Kol=C3=B5van are not the same name in different forms.  But still=
, most
of the same argument applies.  The only case I can think of where it might
be even questionable (but probably not enough to go by this general policy)
is Jurjev.  Russian historiography claims that what is currently Tartu was
first set up by Yaroslav the Wise, and named Jurjev (or Yuryev) in his
saint's honour.  However, arch=C3=A6ological evidence supports inhabitation=
 and
presence of a wooden fort in the site centuries before 1030, so a case coul=
d
be made that Jurjev is not Tartu but the fort Yaroslav built at the site
after burning down the old Tartu (probably called Tarbatu at that time, but
written documentation is scant) fort, and that it is an error to identify
these two settlements.  Nevertheless, it is a fact that while under Russian
Empire after the conquest by Pyotr Pervyy, numerous government documents
were produced that called Tartu Jurjev, and it would do a disservice to the
reader to omit this from the article.

--=20
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 06:43,  <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:PetersJV@aol.com">PetersJV@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">




<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D=
"Arial" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"><div class=3D"im">
<div>
<div>In a message dated 8/17/2009 11:09:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
<a href=3D"mailto:jacurek@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">jacurek@yahoo.com</a=
> writes:</div>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left:blue 2px =
solid"><font style=3D"background-color:transparent" face=3D"Arial" color=3D=
"#000000" size=3D"3"><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jacu=
rek#Nane_of_Wilno" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk=
:Jacurek#Nane_of_Wilno</a></font></blockquote>
</div>
<div></div>
</div><div>We should discuss whether it&#39;s appropriate to mention Wilno =
in the lead of=20
Vilnius, Reval in the lead of Tallinn, etc. Unfortunately, even many materi=
als=20
published today on WWII still use the old names. (Also Libau for Liepaja in=
=20
Latvia, etc...) They can be noted as common English usage &quot;prior to=20
independence&quot;, perhaps?</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I believe these are all appropriate. =C2=A0In most cases, they&#39;re =
one and the same name, pronounced and spelt in slightly different ways to c=
onform with customs of different languages. =C2=A0Before the era of fast co=
mmunication and large dictionaries (or encyclop=C3=A6dias) based on keyword=
s, it was a standard practice.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Usually, the &quot;old name of historic period X&quot; =
is merely the name preferred by people who ruled the city in this historic =
period. =C2=A0So, I&#39;d say &quot;Vilnius (Polish: Wilno) is a city in Li=
thuania ...&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Sometimes, different names have different etymologies; =
for example, Tallinn, Reval and Kol=C3=B5van are not the same name in diffe=
rent forms. =C2=A0But still, most of the same argument applies. =C2=A0The o=
nly case I can think of where it might be even questionable (but probably n=
ot enough to go by this general policy) is Jurjev. =C2=A0Russian historiogr=
aphy claims that what is currently Tartu was first set up by Yaroslav the W=
ise, and named Jurjev (or Yuryev) in his saint&#39;s honour. =C2=A0However,=
 arch=C3=A6ological evidence supports inhabitation and presence of a wooden=
 fort in the site centuries before 1030, so a case could be made that Jurje=
v is not Tartu but the fort Yaroslav built at the site after burning down t=
he old Tartu (probably called Tarbatu at that time, but written documentati=
on is scant) fort, and that it is an error to identify these two settlement=
s. =C2=A0Nevertheless, it is a fact that while under Russian Empire after t=
he conquest by Pyotr Pervyy, numerous government documents were produced th=
at called Tartu Jurjev, and it would do a disservice to the reader to omit =
this from the article.</div>
<div><br></div></div>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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