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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:41:43 EDT
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	Content preview:  In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern
	Daylight Time, rsszulga@gmail.com writes: To the extent that there some
	truth in this, this is something that could normally be discussed and
	worked out. However there's basically no possible way to have a good
	faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan. First time I "met" MK was
	when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he wasn't even involved
	in, simply because he realized my nationality. But from what I know
	there was a lot more direct and willing collaboration in Lithuania than
	in Latvia. The other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz and Co. who
	cast this dispute in Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of Lithuanians
	didn't collaborate and many (like my grandfather) even joined the AK.
	There's definitely plenty of good in Polish-Lithuanian relations over
	the years - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan who try to downplay it as much
	as
	possible and instead focus on the negatives which leads to the
	inevitable enmity. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Can Lokyz be reported?
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	Content preview:  In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern
	Daylight Time, rsszulga@gmail.com writes: To the extent that there some
	truth in this, this is something that could normally be discussed and
	worked out. However there's basically no possible way to have a good
	faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan. First time I "met" MK was
	when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he wasn't even involved
	in, simply because he realized my nationality. But from what I know
	there was a lot more direct and willing collaboration in Lithuania than
	in Latvia. The other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz and Co. who
	cast this dispute in Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of Lithuanians
	didn't collaborate and many (like my grandfather) even joined the AK.
	There's definitely plenty of good in Polish-Lithuanian relations over
	the years - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan who try to downplay it as much as
	possible and instead focus on the negatives which leads to the
	inevitable enmity. [...] 
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In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rsszulga@gmail.com writes:

To the  extent that there some truth in this, this is something that could 
normally be  discussed and worked out. However there's basically no possible 
way to have a  good faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan.
First time I "met" MK was  when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he 
wasn't even involved in,  simply because he realized my nationality.
But from what I know there was a  lot more direct and willing collaboration 
in Lithuania than in Latvia. The  other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz 
and Co. who cast this dispute in  Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of 
Lithuanians didn't collaborate and many  (like my grandfather) even joined the AK. 
There's definitely plenty of good in  Polish-Lithuanian relations over the 
years - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan who  try to downplay it as much as 
possible and instead focus on the negatives  which leads to the inevitable enmity.

Radek



I haven't found Lokyz to be completely unreasonable in the past, at least  
when he's not feeling cornered with his back against the wall.
 
I count myself as both pro-Polish and pro-Lithuanian, from my perspective  
at least both sides tend to descend into the negative side of things through 
no  direct intention to do so, such is the unfortunate nature of these  
disputes.
 
At some point we have to decide what is the most important story over which 
 to argue on WP: whether we argue amongst ourselves about which Eastern 
European  peoples had their Nazi collaborators and what they did in the name of 
or in the  defense against Nazism to each other, or we focus on the fact 
that had the Nazis  and Soviets not invaded, none of that would have happened. 
Speaking of  "widespread", there are specific accounts where Lithuanians 
are (still now)  blamed for clearing the countryside of Jews while unofficial 
German  correspondence (ignored) squarely states it was German commandos who 
did the  killing.
 
Let's not adopt the same slurs the Soviets and now Russians use against  
anti-Soviets (that is, all "Nazi collaborators" were Jew-killing  fascists) 
and apply them to each other. Let's remember that people cooperated to  
survive, and why? Because they had already spent a year under Soviet  occupation 
and learned that to not cooperate or to ask questions was to  disappear.
 
/Peters

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<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
rsszulga@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"=
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  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D2>To the=20
  extent that there some truth in this, this is something that could norma=
lly be=20
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 have a=20
  good faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan.<BR>First time I "met"=
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  when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he wasn't even involved in=
,=20
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 was a=20
  lot more direct and willing collaboration in Lithuania than in Latvia.=
 The=20
  other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz and Co. who cast this dispute=
 in=20
  Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of Lithuanians didn't collaborate and ma=
ny=20
  (like my grandfather) even joined the AK. There's definitely plenty of=
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  Polish-Lithuanian relations over the years - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan=
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  try to downplay it as much as possible and instead focus on the negative=
s=20
  which leads to the inevitable enmity.<BR><BR>Radek<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOT=
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I haven't found Lokyz to be completely unreasonable in the past, at=
 least=20
when&nbsp;he's not feeling cornered with his back against the wall.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I count myself as both pro-Polish and pro-Lithuanian, from my perspec=
tive=20
at least both sides tend to descend into the negative side of things throu=
gh no=20
direct intention to do so, such is the unfortunate nature of these=20
disputes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>At some point we have to decide what is the most important story over=
 which=20
to argue on WP: whether we argue amongst ourselves about which Eastern Eur=
opean=20
peoples had their Nazi collaborators and what they did in the name of or=
 in the=20
defense against Nazism to each other, or we focus on the fact that had the=
 Nazis=20
and Soviets not invaded, <U>none of that would have happened</U>. Speaking=
 of=20
"widespread", there are specific accounts where Lithuanians are (still now=
)=20
blamed for clearing the countryside of Jews while unofficial German=20
correspondence (ignored) squarely states it was German commandos who did=
 the=20
killing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Let's not adopt the same slurs the Soviets and now Russians use again=
st=20
anti-Soviets&nbsp;(that is,&nbsp;all "Nazi collaborators" were Jew-killing=
=20
fascists) and apply them to each other. Let's remember that people coopera=
ted to=20
survive, and why? Because they had already spent a year under&nbsp;Soviet=
=20
occupation and learned that to not cooperate or to ask questions was to=20
disappear.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>/Peters</DIV></FONT><DIV CLASS=3D"aol_ad_footer" ID=3D"6ddbc80ed93f0f=
518dcdf196b07fbcfb"><br/><font style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt arial=
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