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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:13:29 +0300
Message-ID: <f826636f0906071613p4da86178h66c920e01ba16ca0@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Yes, unfortunately there is little mention in WP that
	"moderate" anti-Semitism was alright before 1940s. In the context
	things
	sometimes look differently. Yes, it is true that Bessarabian Jews on
	average did not feel much attachment to Romania, were almost entirely
	politically left, and idialistically sympathized with the Soviets. A
	typical example: many (not only Jews) dismissed as bogus reports of
	famine in Ukraine in 1932-33, although there were several thousand
	refugees in Bessarabia. Many Jews came to "greet" or to "watch" how the
	Soviet troops arrived in Bessarabia starting June 28th, 1940. There are
	several documented cases of radicalized Jewish youth gangs beating to
	death and even setting fire of several people, like Romanian army
	solders, intellectuals and others who planned to leave the region once
	Soviets came. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory
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	Content preview:  Yes, unfortunately there is little mention in WP that
	"moderate" anti-Semitism was alright before 1940s. In the context things
	sometimes look differently. Yes, it is true that Bessarabian Jews on
	average did not feel much attachment to Romania, were almost entirely
	politically left, and idialistically sympathized with the Soviets. A
	typical example: many (not only Jews) dismissed as bogus reports of
	famine in Ukraine in 1932-33, although there were several thousand
	refugees in Bessarabia. Many Jews came to "greet" or to "watch" how the
	Soviet troops arrived in Bessarabia starting June 28th, 1940. There are
	several documented cases of radicalized Jewish youth gangs beating to
	death and even setting fire of several people, like Romanian army
	solders, intellectuals and others who planned to leave the region once
	Soviets came. [...] 
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Yes, unfortunately there is little mention in WP that "moderate"
anti-Semitism was alright before 1940s. In the context things sometimes look
differently.

Yes, it is true that Bessarabian Jews on average did not feel much
attachment to Romania, were almost entirely politically left, and
idialistically sympathized with the Soviets. A typical example: many (not
only Jews) dismissed as bogus reports of famine in Ukraine in 1932-33,
although there were several thousand refugees in Bessarabia. Many Jews came
to "greet" or to "watch" how the Soviet troops arrived in Bessarabia
starting June 28th, 1940. There are several documented cases of radicalized
Jewish youth gangs beating to death and even setting fire of several people,
like Romanian army solders, intellectuals and others who planned to leave
the region once Soviets came.

However, if you read eyewitnesses of 1940-41, they will tell (independently)
an interesting fact: in September 1940 most Jews would turn their faces away
"in shame" when meeting their Romanian neighbors. Those two months were
enough to learn what Soviet power means. And Jewish small business owners
(of which there were thousands) felt it directly on their skin. Eventually,
in 1946 famine became a reality as well. And Jews were not spared from
Soviet deportations, in 1940-41, and after the war..

And then came August 1941, when Antonescu ordered Jews that did not flee
with the Soviets to be gathered in ghettos and deported. The scary thing is
that many Jews felt they deserve a collective punishment. As a result 1,000
jandarms and Eisatzkommando had no problem gathering and moving 150,000 Jews
that remained in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina.

Also, the previous experience meant it was only when Romanians saw hundreds
of cases of Jews killed or let die that they started to ask themselves
"Isn't this too much? We thought they are going to judge 200 of them to make
an example, not "cleanse" them all." In the end, over half of the 150,000
Jews did not survive.

An outrageous thing is that they deported and "punished" those Jews that had
preferred to stay rather than flee with the Soviets. While those 1,000 Jews
that represented 50% of the 2,000-strong Romanian Communist Party, those few
hundred Jews that participated in beatings and killings in June-July 1940 -
they (and their relatives) left with the Soviets on day one and were never
subject to any deportation or ghettos. And those evil individuals (Jews or
not, it's not important, they were evil as individuals) are the ones now
being portrayed by editors like Dahn as innocent and victims of
anti-Semitism.

There are and were good and evil individuals in every nation, and we
shouldn't self-censure ourselves to say that everyone in nation x is good,
and everyone in nation y is bad. Granted the tide wasn't even either, at
different times it went one way, then the other, then again. I firmly
believe that the full complexity must be exposed.

The killing by Jews in June-July 1940 and then of Jews in July-August 1941
happened also in my home town. I can point to several exact places, although
vast majority of passer by's have no idea what dark history those places
have. For example, the square in front of one of the railway stations where
Jews killed refugees. Another example, a temporary 3,000-strong ghetto that
lasted one month was during the Soviet times (and if i am not mistaken even
today) a restaurant where people preferred doing weddings.

It is easy for Dahn to write about Romanian inter-war intellectuals as
anti-Semitic against "innocent" Romanian Communist Party members, when there
were perhaps no Jews in his home town. He imagines every Jew just loved
everybody around and everybody around just hated them. He imagines those
ghettos are just like in the movies and after 1945 they became sacred
memorials... Hey not, Soviet were no less anti-Semitic. Golda Meir's parents
had a house in my home town were at some point they lived for a couple
years. After WWII, some businessmen in Israel offered to buy it to turn it
into a memorial. The Soviet reaction was that they took down not only that
building, but also some others around, so that today people cannot say
exactly where it was. And so on, tons of examples.

Cheers,
Dorin


> Also, about anti-Semitism in earlier generations, we should remember that:
> *Those attitudes were not totally groundless. Which is not to justify,
> say, the Kishinev pogrom, but Jews often were arrogant, aloof, after
> money, exploitative, and so on. Which doesn't justify killing them, and
> doesn't mean they literally drank Gentile blood, but I can certainly
> understand a certain reserve toward them, especially when they themselves
> tended to keep apart from their societies. Also, the whole Christ-killing
> business shaded matters.
> *This was all pre-Holocaust. If anti-Semitism was unacceptable in the
> Western mainstream from WWII until ca. 2000 (it's become semi-legitimised in
> certain circles again), it was quite common prior to 1939-41, even among the
> upper class, in Britain, in the US, not to mention France or Russia. So
> context is important. It was far more usual for a Romanian to be hostile or
> neutral toward Jews than to embrace them.
> *While Jews were, of course, overwhelmingly victims in WWII, we should not
> forget that, in the Baltics, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia and Northern
> Bukovina in 1939-41, some of them were willing implementers of Stalinism.
> (Dahn strives to deny this with regard to Bessarabia, but, justified by the
> anti-Semitism of the previous months and years or not, it's probably true
> that Jews did enthusiastically welcome the advance of Soviet tanks onto
> Romanian land in June 1940, and did help the Soviets during that first,
> dreadful wave of terror and deportations.) It's a part of the war that's
> still the most sensitive topic of discussion (along with the eastward
> advance of the Axis in June-July 1941 and the retaking of these
> territories), but worth exploring in full nonetheless.
>
>

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<div>Yes, unfortunately there is little mention in WP that &quot;moderate&q=
uot; anti-Semitism was alright before 1940s. In the context things sometime=
s look differently.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, it is true that Bessarabi=
an Jews on average did not feel much attachment to Romania, were almost ent=
irely politically left, and idialistically sympathized with the Soviets. A =
typical example: many (not only Jews) dismissed as bogus reports of famine =
in Ukraine in 1932-33, although there were several thousand refugees in Bes=
sarabia. Many Jews came to &quot;greet&quot; or to &quot;watch&quot; how th=
e Soviet troops arrived in Bessarabia starting June 28th, 1940. There are s=
everal documented cases of radicalized Jewish youth gangs beating to death =
and even setting fire of several people, like Romanian army solders, intell=
ectuals and others who planned to leave the region once Soviets came.</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, if you read eyewitnesses of 1940-41, they will=
 tell (independently) an interesting fact: in September 1940 most Jews woul=
d turn their faces away &quot;in shame&quot; when meeting their Romanian ne=
ighbors. Those two months were enough to learn what Soviet power means. And=
 Jewish small business owners (of which there were thousands) felt it direc=
tly on their skin. Eventually, in 1946 famine became a reality as well. And=
 Jews were not spared from Soviet deportations, in 1940-41, and after the w=
ar..</div>
<div><br></div><div>And then came August 1941, when Antonescu ordered Jews =
that did not flee with the Soviets to be gathered in ghettos and deported. =
The scary thing is that many Jews felt they deserve a collective punishment=
. As a result 1,000 jandarms and Eisatzkommando had no problem gathering an=
d moving 150,000 Jews that remained in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina.=A0=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also, the previous experience meant it was only when Ro=
manians saw hundreds of cases of Jews killed or let die that they started t=
o ask themselves &quot;Isn&#39;t this too much? We thought they are going t=
o judge 200 of them to make an example, not &quot;cleanse&quot; them all.&q=
uot; In the end, over half of the 150,000 Jews did not survive.</div>
<div><br></div><div>An outrageous thing is that they deported and &quot;pun=
ished&quot; those Jews that had preferred to stay rather than flee with the=
 Soviets. While those 1,000 Jews that represented 50% of the 2,000-strong R=
omanian Communist Party, those few hundred Jews that participated in beatin=
gs and killings in June-July 1940 - they (and their relatives) left with th=
e Soviets on day one and were never subject to any deportation or ghettos. =
And those evil individuals (Jews or not, it&#39;s not important, they were =
evil as individuals) are the ones now being portrayed by editors like Dahn =
as innocent and victims of anti-Semitism.</div>
<div><br></div><div>There are and were good and evil individuals in every n=
ation, and we shouldn&#39;t self-censure ourselves to say that everyone in =
nation x is good, and everyone in nation y is bad. Granted the tide wasn&#3=
9;t even either, at different times it went one way, then the other, then a=
gain. I firmly believe that the full complexity must be exposed.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>The killing by Jews in June-July 1940 and then of Jews =
in July-August 1941 happened also in my home town. I can point to several e=
xact places, although vast majority of passer by&#39;s have no idea what da=
rk history those places have. For example, the square in front of one of th=
e railway stations where Jews killed refugees. Another example, a temporary=
 3,000-strong ghetto that lasted one month was during the Soviet times (and=
 if i am not mistaken even today) a restaurant where people preferred doing=
 weddings. =A0 =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>It is easy for Dahn to write about Romanian inter-war i=
ntellectuals as anti-Semitic against &quot;innocent&quot; Romanian Communis=
t Party members, when there were perhaps no Jews in his home town.=A0He ima=
gines every Jew just loved everybody around and everybody around just hated=
 them.=A0He imagines those ghettos are just like in the movies and after 19=
45 they became sacred memorials... Hey not, Soviet were no less anti-Semiti=
c. Golda Meir&#39;s parents had a house in my home town were at some point =
they lived for a couple years. After WWII, some businessmen in Israel offer=
ed to buy it to turn it into a memorial. The Soviet reaction was that they =
took down not only that building, but also some others around, so that toda=
y people cannot say exactly where it was. And so on, tons of examples.</div=
>
<div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Dorin =A0=A0</div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpa=
dding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"font:inherit"><div><br></div><div>Al=
so, about anti-Semitism in earlier generations, we should remember that:</d=
iv><div>*Those attitudes were not <span style=3D"font-style:italic">totally=
</span>=A0groundless. Which is not to justify, say, the Kishinev pogrom, bu=
t Jews often <span style=3D"font-style:italic">were</span>=A0arrogant, aloo=
f, after money, exploitative, and so on. Which doesn&#39;t justify killing =
them, and doesn&#39;t mean they
 literally drank Gentile blood, but I can certainly understand a certain re=
serve toward them, especially when they themselves tended to keep apart fro=
m their societies. Also, the whole Christ-killing business shaded matters.<=
/div>
<div>*This was all pre-Holocaust. If anti-Semitism was unacceptable in the =
Western mainstream from WWII until ca. 2000 (it&#39;s become semi-legitimis=
ed in certain circles again), it was quite common prior to 1939-41, even am=
ong the upper class, in Britain, in the US, not to mention France or Russia=
. So context is important. It was far more usual for a Romanian to be hosti=
le or neutral toward Jews than to embrace them.</div>
<div>*While Jews were, of course, overwhelmingly victims in WWII, we should=
 not forget that, in the Baltics, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia and Norther=
n Bukovina in 1939-41, some of them were willing implementers of Stalinism.=
 (Dahn strives to deny this with regard to Bessarabia, but, justified by th=
e
 anti-Semitism of the previous months and years or not, it&#39;s probably t=
rue that Jews <span style=3D"font-style:italic">did</span>=A0enthusiastical=
ly welcome the advance of Soviet tanks onto Romanian land in June 1940, and=
 <span style=3D"font-style:italic">did</span>=A0help the Soviets during tha=
t first, dreadful wave of terror and deportations.) It&#39;s a part of the =
war that&#39;s still the most sensitive topic of discussion (along with the=
 eastward advance of the Axis in June-July 1941 and the retaking of these t=
erritories), but worth exploring in full nonetheless.</div>
<div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"=
4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 16px;"><br></span><=
/font></span></font></div>
</td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote></div>

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