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	<25890ca0907311617p28b4d606y55f9c5c4724df035@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:16:35 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  According to Woogie the other members of the commission
	were: Dr. Adolf Diestlkamp Dr. Rudolf Laun Dr. Peter Rassow Dr. Hans
	Rothfels 2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com> > I've asked Woogie
	about it, he might know as he seems pretty knowledgeable > in this area.
	> > I'm not sure we can catch Skapperod in this although goading him
	into > further statements about the "non-Nazi" nature of the commission
	can be > helpful in exposing him. > > Radek > > > 2009/7/31 Molobo
	Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> > >> If it is Hans Lukaschek then he was the
	chief of antipolish propaganda >> during fights with Poles in Upper
	Silesia: >> >> >>
	http://books.google.com/books?id=QIAXSaC3lMQC&pg=PA176&dq=Lukaschek&ei=ZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&hl=pl#v=onepage&q=Lukaschek&f=false
	>> >> 2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>: >> > Thank you Radek
	! >> > >> > Also I noted Skapperod comment: >> > >> > "Schieder was the
	head of the commission, and he had a Nazi past. Yet >> there >> > were
	also other people in the commission with not such a past, eg >>
	Oberländer >> > had broken with Koch already in 1938, and Lukaschek was
	in the anti-Nazi >> > resistance. Skäpperöd (talk) " >> > >> > Could
	you find out the name of the Oberländer ? Or the names of the >> >
	commission people ? >> > I think I heard the Oberländer name before. As
	to "Anti-Nazi" resistance >> > that's hardly an argument, since many of
	those despised Poles despite >> > opposing Hitler (Stauffenberg for
	example). >> > >> > If this is Theodor Oberländer then Skapperod is
	either ignorant or >> trying to >> > smuggle under the carpet a very
	nasty revisionism. Either ways he is in >> deep >> > trouble.
	Oberländer was one of the people supporting the Generalplan >> Ost. >>
	> Don't let him know that yet. Let us confirm this is this person. Then
	we >> can >> > reveal that fact and add that the comission was made up
	partly of former >> > nazi supporters supporting Generalplan Ost. Btw
	the current version in >> the >> > article misleads the reader that
	Generalplan Ost was "expulsion plan" >> rather >> > then extermination
	plan(as can be sourced in this article from Piotrus >> >
	http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875 ) >> > >> > 2009/7/31 radek szulga
	[...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Guess who is
	Lukaschek...
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	Content preview:  According to Woogie the other members of the commission
	were: Dr. Adolf Diestlkamp Dr. Rudolf Laun Dr. Peter Rassow Dr. Hans
	Rothfels 2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com> > I've asked Woogie
	about it, he might know as he seems pretty knowledgeable > in this area.
	> > I'm not sure we can catch Skapperod in this although goading him
	into > further statements about the "non-Nazi" nature of the commission
	can be > helpful in exposing him. > > Radek > > > 2009/7/31 Molobo
	Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> > >> If it is Hans Lukaschek then he was the
	chief of antipolish propaganda >> during fights with Poles in Upper
	Silesia: >> >> >>
	http://books.google.com/books?id=QIAXSaC3lMQC&pg=PA176&dq=Lukaschek&ei=ZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&hl=pl#v=onepage&q=Lukaschek&f=false
	>> >> 2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>: >> > Thank you Radek
	! >> > >> > Also I noted Skapperod comment: >> > >> > "Schieder was the
	head of the commission, and he had a Nazi past. Yet >> there >> > were
	also other people in the commission with not such a past, eg >>
	Oberländer >> > had broken with Koch already in 1938, and Lukaschek was
	in the anti-Nazi >> > resistance. Skäpperöd (talk) " >> > >> > Could
	you find out the name of the Oberländer ? Or the names of the >> >
	commission people ? >> > I think I heard the Oberländer name before. As
	to "Anti-Nazi" resistance >> > that's hardly an argument, since many of
	those despised Poles despite >> > opposing Hitler (Stauffenberg for
	example). >> > >> > If this is Theodor Oberländer then Skapperod is
	either ignorant or >> trying to >> > smuggle under the carpet a very
	nasty revisionism. Either ways he is in >> deep >> > trouble.
	Oberländer was one of the people supporting the Generalplan >> Ost. >>
	> Don't let him know that yet. Let us confirm this is this person. Then
	we >> can >> > reveal that fact and add that the comission was made up
	partly of former >> > nazi supporters supporting Generalplan Ost. Btw
	the current version in >> the >> > article misleads the reader that
	Generalplan Ost was "expulsion plan" >> rather >> > then extermination
	plan(as can be sourced in this article from Piotrus >> >
	http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875 ) >> > >> > 2009/7/31 radek szulga
	[...] 
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According to Woogie the other members of the commission were:
Dr. Adolf Diestlkamp
Dr. Rudolf Laun
Dr. Peter Rassow
Dr. Hans Rothfels


2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>

> I've asked Woogie about it, he might know as he seems pretty knowledgeabl=
e
> in this area.
>
> I'm not sure we can catch Skapperod in this although goading him into
> further statements about the "non-Nazi" nature of the commission can be
> helpful in exposing him.
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>
>> If it is Hans Lukaschek then he was the chief of antipolish propaganda
>> during fights with Poles in Upper Silesia:
>>
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQIAXSaC3lMQC&pg=3DPA176&dq=3DLukasche=
k&ei=3DZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&hl=3Dpl#v=3Donepage&q=3DLukaschek&f=3Dfalse
>>
>> 2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
>> > Thank you Radek !
>> >
>> > Also I noted Skapperod comment:
>> >
>> > "Schieder was the head of the commission, and he had a Nazi past. Yet
>> there
>> > were also other people in the commission with not such a past, eg
>> Oberl=C3=A4nder
>> > had broken with Koch already in 1938, and Lukaschek was in the anti-Na=
zi
>> > resistance. Sk=C3=A4pper=C3=B6d (talk) "
>> >
>> > Could you find out the name of the Oberl=C3=A4nder ? Or the names of t=
he
>> > commission people ?
>> > I think I heard the Oberl=C3=A4nder name before. As to "Anti-Nazi" res=
istance
>> > that's hardly an argument, since many of those despised Poles despite
>> > opposing Hitler (Stauffenberg for example).
>> >
>> > If this is Theodor Oberl=C3=A4nder then Skapperod is either ignorant o=
r
>> trying to
>> > smuggle under the carpet a very nasty revisionism. Either ways he is i=
n
>> deep
>> > trouble. Oberl=C3=A4nder was one of the people supporting the Generalp=
lan
>> Ost.
>> > Don't let him know that yet. Let us confirm this is this person. Then =
we
>> can
>> > reveal that fact and add that the comission was made up partly of form=
er
>> > nazi supporters supporting Generalplan Ost. Btw the current version in
>> the
>> > article misleads the reader that Generalplan Ost was "expulsion plan"
>> rather
>> > then extermination plan(as can be sourced in this article from Piotrus
>> > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875 )
>> >
>> > 2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in the Expulsions
>> >> article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source- Woogie was nice
>> enough
>> >> to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and send it to me. I expe=
ct
>> >> Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a revert or two of him, to
>> show
>> >> that he is editing against consensus and against sources would be ver=
y
>> >> helpful. Don't go crazy though - 1 revert with some discussion.
>> >>
>> >> Radek
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2009/7/29 Jack <jacurek@yahoo.com>
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I'm away on the trip an=
d
>> >>> can't be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.
>> >>> Thanks again.
>> >>> Jacek
>> >>>
>> >>> --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found
>> >>> information about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled Germa=
ns
>> >>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
>> >>> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM
>> >>>
>> >>> Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as
>> >>> expelled:
>> >>> http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf
>> >>>
>> >>> Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):
>> >>> Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99
>> >>> dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =
=C5=BBydzi oraz
>> inne
>> >>> ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przy=
padki.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo <
>> molobus@gmail.com>
>> >>> napisa=C5=82:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi Radek,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are
>> mentioned ?
>> >>>> Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
>> >>>> Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with engli=
sh
>> >>>> translation:
>> >>>> http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as bein=
g
>> >>>> well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German
>> historians, for
>> >>>> example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4ris=
che Verluste
>> im
>> >>>> Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   "The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in
>> the
>> >>>> immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldier=
s,
>> and
>> >>>> similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing
>> civilians or
>> >>>> bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed th=
e
>> events
>> >>>> historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches
>> >>>> Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical sea=
rch
>> service did a
>> >>>> lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to
>> quantitatively
>> >>>> assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The
>> result can
>> >>>> be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had be=
en
>> killed
>> >>>> during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respecti=
ve
>> >>>> territories who had died during military service.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an
>> >>>> integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result
>> not of a
>> >>>> counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a
>> population
>> >>>> balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitant=
s
>> of the
>> >>>> expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must
>> therefore be
>> >>>> assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these event=
s.
>> In the
>> >>>> last years, however, these statements have been increasingly
>> questioned, as
>> >>>> the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number
>> of
>> >>>> victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is
>> also an
>> >>>> unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of
>> the
>> >>>> previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could
>> always be
>> >>>> said, however, that the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that the death o=
f these
>> people
>> >>>> had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2
>> >>>> milion mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but=
 I
>> lost
>> >>>> the article where it was written.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <
>> rsszulga@gmail.com>
>> >>>> napisa=C5=82:
>> >>>> > Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so could you look at
>> >>>> > Skapperod's latest argument
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > [
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_I=
I#Overmans
>> ]?
>> >>>> > He's trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million
>> figure
>> >>>> > has to
>> >>>> > be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state
>> that
>> >>>> > this is
>> >>>> > only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying =
to
>> >>>> > take one
>> >>>> > single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all there i=
s
>> to
>> >>>> > it.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Radek
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by politician=
s
>> :
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html
>> >>>> >> "Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzeni=
a i wysiedlenia do
>> swoich
>> >>>> >> dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i=
 liczby, kt=C3=B3re
>> dla
>> >>>> >> nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne"
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be
>> better
>> >>>> >> if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that
>> knows
>> >>>> >> Polish and good add this source.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
>> >>>> >> > I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and =
if
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > numbers
>> >>>> >> > were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article=
.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Here is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help y=
ou
>> >>>> >> > and can
>> >>>> >> > be
>> >>>> >> > added as well to the sources needed
>> >>>> >> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> >>>> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> >>>> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> >>>> > folks@wikipedometer.net
>> >>>> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> >>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> >>> http://wikipedometer..net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> >>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> >>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>
>

--0016e65b411c76f6c4047012ab2f
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According to Woogie the other members of the commission were:<br><div>Dr. A=
dolf Diestlkamp</div>
<div>Dr. Rudolf Laun</div>
<div>Dr. Peter Rassow</div>
<div>Dr. Hans Rothfels</div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/31 ra=
dek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rssz=
ulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
I&#39;ve asked Woogie about it, he might know as he seems pretty knowledgea=
ble in this area.<br><br>I&#39;m not sure we can catch Skapperod in this al=
though goading him into further statements about the &quot;non-Nazi&quot; n=
ature of the commission can be helpful in exposing him.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">
<br>Radek</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
olobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204=
, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

If it is Hans Lukaschek then he was the chief of antipolish propaganda<br>
during fights with Poles in Upper Silesia:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQIAXSaC3lMQC&amp;pg=3DPA176&a=
mp;dq=3DLukaschek&amp;ei=3DZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&amp;hl=3Dpl#v=3Donepage&a=
mp;q=3DLukaschek&amp;f=3Dfalse" target=3D"_blank">http://books.google.com/b=
ooks?id=3DQIAXSaC3lMQC&amp;pg=3DPA176&amp;dq=3DLukaschek&amp;ei=3DZF1zSr2fA=
pqUygT0m72RAw&amp;hl=3Dpl#v=3Donepage&amp;q=3DLukaschek&amp;f=3Dfalse</a><b=
r>


<br>
2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; Thank you Radek !<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Also I noted Skapperod comment:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;Schieder was the head of the commission, and he had a Nazi past.=
 Yet there<br>
&gt; were also other people in the commission with not such a past, eg Ober=
l=C3=A4nder<br>
&gt; had broken with Koch already in 1938, and Lukaschek was in the anti-Na=
zi<br>
&gt; resistance. Sk=C3=A4pper=C3=B6d (talk) &quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Could you find out the name of the Oberl=C3=A4nder ? Or the names of t=
he<br>
&gt; commission people ?<br>
&gt; I think I heard the Oberl=C3=A4nder name before. As to &quot;Anti-Nazi=
&quot; resistance<br>
&gt; that&#39;s hardly an argument, since many of those despised Poles desp=
ite<br>
&gt; opposing Hitler (Stauffenberg for example).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If this is Theodor Oberl=C3=A4nder then Skapperod is either ignorant o=
r trying to<br>
&gt; smuggle under the carpet a very nasty revisionism. Either ways he is i=
n deep<br>
&gt; trouble. Oberl=C3=A4nder was one of the people supporting the Generalp=
lan Ost.<br>
&gt; Don&#39;t let him know that yet. Let us confirm this is this person. T=
hen we can<br>
&gt; reveal that fact and add that the comission was made up partly of form=
er<br>
&gt; nazi supporters supporting Generalplan Ost. Btw the current version in=
 the<br>
&gt; article misleads the reader that Generalplan Ost was &quot;expulsion p=
lan&quot; rather<br>
&gt; then extermination plan(as can be sourced in this article from Piotrus=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875</a> )<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2009/7/31 radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in the Expulsio=
ns<br>
&gt;&gt; article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source- Woogie was nic=
e enough<br>
&gt;&gt; to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and send it to me. I e=
xpect<br>
&gt;&gt; Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a revert or two of him,=
 to show<br>
&gt;&gt; that he is editing against consensus and against sources would be =
very<br>
&gt;&gt; helpful. Don&#39;t go crazy though - 1 revert with some discussion=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Radek<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 2009/7/29 Jack &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jacurek@yahoo.com" target=3D"=
_blank">jacurek@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I&#39;m away on t=
he trip and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; can&#39;t be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks again.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Jacek<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molob=
us@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Fou=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; information about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled=
 Germans<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fol=
ks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted =
as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; expelled:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemi=
eccy =C5=BBydzi oraz inne<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnion=
e przypadki.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; napisa=C5=82:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Radek,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers a=
re mentioned ?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman w=
ith english<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; translation:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D=
6291" target=3D"_blank">http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred t=
o as being<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well above the mark, has recently been challenged by Germa=
n historians, for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=
=C3=A4rische Verluste im<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my trans=
lation):<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 &quot;The deaths during flight and expulsion concer=
ned the Germans in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missin=
g soldiers, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missi=
ng civilians or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bring families together. A huge scientific project reconst=
ructed the events<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statis=
tisches<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the cle=
rical search service did a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lot with the financial support of the Federal Government t=
o quantitatively<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possibl=
e. The result can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germa=
ns had been killed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; during flight and expulsion - not including those from the=
 respective<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; territories who had died during military service.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0These casualty figures, however, which for de=
cades have been an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; integral part of the respective serious literature, are th=
e result not of a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of=
 a population<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million i=
nhabitants of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it m=
ust therefore be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of th=
ese events. In the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; last years, however, these statements have been increasing=
ly questioned, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that t=
he number of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons -=
 which is also an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a qu=
arter of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it=
 could always be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; said, however, that the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that th=
e death of these people<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; had been proven, but only that their fate could not be cla=
rified.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry beca=
use the 2<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; milion mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holo=
caust-but I lost<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the article where it was written.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; napisa=C5=82:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hey Molobo, my German&#39;s next to non existent so c=
ould you look at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Skapperod&#39;s latest argument<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; [<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsi=
on_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wiki=
pedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans</a>]?<=
br>


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; He&#39;s trying to claim that Overmans implies that t=
he 2+ million figure<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; has to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources cle=
arly state that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; this is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapper=
od&#39;s trying to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; take one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; single adjustment out of many and pretend that that&#=
39;s all there is to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Radek<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are use=
d by politicians :<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,3576=
2,5205417.html" target=3D"_blank">http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5=
205417.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=
=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia i wysiedlenia do swoich<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 tak=
ie wydarzenia i liczby, kt=C3=B3re dla<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps=
 it would be better<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or oth=
er editor that knows<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Polish and good add this source.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mol=
obus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I see you are engaging in debate about casua=
lties numbers and if<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; numbers<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; were influenced by politicians in Expulsion =
of Germans article.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Here is a usefull source by Polish historian=
 that could help you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; and can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; added as well to the sources needed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708=
_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339=
708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=
=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailm=
an/listinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailm=
an/listinfo/folks</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"=
_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/l=
istinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/l=
istinfo/folks</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">f=
olks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer." target=3D"_blank">http://wik=
ipedometer.</a>.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">f=
olks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/f=
olks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/f=
olks</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks=
@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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