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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:14:08 +0300
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From: Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>
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	Content preview:  On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 23:58, Andrei Dombay
	<wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrote: > Offliner just reported you. Probably
	the best way to respond is to provide > "point by point" reply to every
	accusation by Offliner, with supporting > diffs. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Offliner (Piotrus -- please advice)
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	Content preview:  On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 23:58, Andrei Dombay
	<wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrote: > Offliner just reported you. Probably
	the best way to respond is to provide > "point by point" reply to every
	accusation by Offliner, with supporting > diffs. [...] 
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On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 23:58, Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrote:

> Offliner just reported you.  Probably the best way to respond is to provide
> "point by point" reply to every accusation by Offliner, with supporting
> diffs.


History has shown it doesn't work, most of the time.  Besides, it's a lot of
unnecessary work.

I was having in mind something like writing on Sandstein's (or another
administrator's) talkpage something like this:

Hi,
>
> I'm writing to ask for your advice.
>
> It seems Biophys has filed an AE request on Offliner, citing numerous
> complaints.  Perhaps foolishly, I added one more diff of my encounters with
> Offliner.  It seems that this has provoked Offliner further, and he has
> responded by filing a countersuit against Biophys, and one against me.
> There's a lot of diffs, so I won't discuss all of them, but for context,
> I'll discuss one of them.
>
> The first diff mentioned by Offliner, [
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AKaitsepolitsei&diff=281346001&oldid=281344953],
> is a talkpage edit of mine, explaining that Risto Teinonen can't be
> considered a reliable source for Estonian Defence Police.  Teinonen is a
> notorious neo-Nazi in Estonia whose, needless to say, rather critical blog
> post of Estonian Defence Police had been used as a source in Wikipedia by
> somebody.  I expressed my frustration at this appearance of neo-Nazi ideas
> in the edit summary ("I was born so many years after the WWII<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII>,
> and *still* there are Nazis around. Sigh."), I expressed my surprise that
> anybody who isn't a neo-Nazi might fall for thee ideas in the post body ("For
> a taste of Teinonen's opinions, [http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/417964 the
> first article about him on Google] is an interview headlined "Teinonen:
> National Socialism had many good sides". He's '''notorious''', not
> ''notable''.  I find it hard to believe that anybody but another neo-Nazi
> would seriously consider adding Teinonen's opinion about police onto
> Wikipedia would be a good idea.")  Offliner describes the post as "Implying
> that other editors are neo-nazis:", which quite clearly is not what I had in
> mind.  I suppose I might have been a bit ambiguous -- not being a native
> English speaker, I stumble occasionally -- but given that this diff has been
> brought by Offliner to the administrator's noticeboard before, and the
> consensus has not found any personal attack in it, I doubt this is what
> happened here.
>
> That was the first diff.  I spent about 1500 words, and about 30 minutes,
> on discussing it, and I trust you'll find it's not AE material.  Offliner
> has listed 39 diffs; at a glance, they're all similar, so it seems prudent
> to assume they'll take roughly the same level of time.  I really am not sure
> spending 19 hours on a 58500-word thorough rebuttal is an appropriate use of
> my time, or the time of the poor administrator who would need to read
> through it all.  For comparison, the article [[word count]] states that a
> typical mystery novel is around 60 000 words.  If I had that sort of time,
> I'd rather be writing a series of articles on computational linguistics or
> medieval castles Germans built in Estonia.
>
> Please advice: is this ordeal needed?  Do I need to write a mystery novel
> to defend myself against misinterpreted or sometimes rather vague
> accusations?  Alternatively, would it be viable to not respond at all, and
> hope that the handling administrator will understand the diffs as well on
> his or her own?
>
> Two years ago, I was once drawn into an arbcom battle, and I dedicated a
> lot of effort on it.  I guess that's enough for a lifetime; if at all
> possible, I'd rather not enter another large-scale wikibattle. ~~~~


-- 
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 23:58, Andrei Dombay <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wikibiophys@gmail.com">wikibiophys@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddi=
ng-left: 1ex;">
Offliner just reported you.=C2=A0 Probably the best way to respond is to pr=
ovide &quot;point by point&quot; reply to every accusation by Offliner, wit=
h supporting diffs.</blockquote><div><br>History has shown it doesn&#39;t w=
ork, most of the time.=C2=A0 Besides, it&#39;s a lot of unnecessary work.<b=
r>
<br>I was having in mind something like writing on Sandstein&#39;s (or anot=
her administrator&#39;s) talkpage something like this:<br><br><blockquote s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quote">
Hi,<br><br>I&#39;m writing to ask for your advice.<br><br>It seems Biophys =
has filed an AE request on Offliner, citing numerous complaints.=C2=A0 Perh=
aps foolishly, I added one more diff of my encounters with Offliner.=C2=A0 =
It seems that this has provoked Offliner further, and he has responded by f=
iling a countersuit against Biophys, and one against me.=C2=A0 There&#39;s =
a lot of diffs, so I won&#39;t discuss all of them, but for context, I&#39;=
ll discuss one of them.<br>
<br>The first diff mentioned by Offliner, [<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.o=
rg/w/index.php?title=3DTalk%3AKaitsepolitsei&amp;diff=3D281346001&amp;oldid=
=3D281344953">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk%3AKaitsepoli=
tsei&amp;diff=3D281346001&amp;oldid=3D281344953</a>], is a talkpage edit of=
 mine, explaining that Risto Teinonen can&#39;t be considered a reliable so=
urce for Estonian Defence Police.=C2=A0 Teinonen is a notorious neo-Nazi in=
 Estonia whose, needless to say, rather critical blog post of Estonian Defe=
nce Police had been used as a source in Wikipedia by somebody.=C2=A0 I expr=
essed my frustration at this appearance of neo-Nazi ideas in the edit summa=
ry (&quot;<span class=3D"comment">I was born so many years after the <a hre=
f=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII" class=3D"mw-redirect" title=3D"WWII=
">WWII</a>, and *still* there are Nazis around.  Sigh.&quot;), I expressed =
my surprise that anybody who isn&#39;t a neo-Nazi might fall for thee ideas=
 in the post body (&quot;</span>For a taste of Teinonen&#39;s opinions, [<a=
 href=3D"http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/417964">http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/4179=
64</a>
the first article about him on Google] is an interview headlined
&quot;Teinonen: National Socialism had many good sides&quot;. He&#39;s
&#39;&#39;&#39;notorious&#39;&#39;&#39;, not &#39;&#39;notable&#39;&#39;.=
=C2=A0 I find it hard to believe that anybody but another neo-Nazi would
seriously consider adding Teinonen&#39;s opinion about police onto
Wikipedia would be a good idea.&quot;)=C2=A0 Offliner describes the post as=
 &quot;Implying that other editors are neo-nazis:&quot;, which quite clearl=
y is not what I had in mind.=C2=A0 I suppose I might have been a bit ambigu=
ous -- not being a native English speaker, I stumble occasionally -- but gi=
ven that this diff has been brought by Offliner to the administrator&#39;s =
noticeboard before, and the consensus has not found any personal attack in =
it, I doubt this is what happened here.<br>
<br>That was the first diff.=C2=A0 I spent about 1500 words, and about 30 m=
inutes, on discussing it, and I trust you&#39;ll find it&#39;s not AE mater=
ial.=C2=A0 Offliner has listed 39 diffs; at a glance, they&#39;re all simil=
ar, so it seems prudent to assume they&#39;ll take roughly the same level o=
f time.=C2=A0 I really am not sure spending 19 hours on a 58500-word thorou=
gh rebuttal is an appropriate use of my time, or the time of the poor admin=
istrator who would need to read through it all.=C2=A0 For comparison, the a=
rticle [[word count]] states that a typical mystery novel is around 60 000 =
words.=C2=A0 If I had that sort of time, I&#39;d rather be writing a series=
 of articles on computational linguistics or medieval castles Germans built=
 in Estonia.<br>
<br>Please advice: is this ordeal needed?=C2=A0 Do I need to write a myster=
y novel to defend myself against misinterpreted or sometimes rather vague a=
ccusations?=C2=A0 Alternatively, would it be viable to not respond at all, =
and hope that the handling administrator will understand the diffs as well =
on his or her own?<br>
<br>Two years ago, I was once drawn into an arbcom battle, and I dedicated =
a lot of effort on it.=C2=A0 I guess that&#39;s enough for a lifetime; if a=
t all possible, I&#39;d rather not enter another large-scale wikibattle. ~~=
~~</blockquote>
</div></div><br>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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