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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
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"believe most notable groups using Wikipedia for propaganda are political
factions, particularly a number of pressure groups"
Indeed I have been once informed(long time ago) by one German group that
certain  German editors are part of right-wing nationalist organization
editing Wiki. I do remember they even had a blog of some sorts but details
escape me. Also I found mention of me and Piotr's on one nationalist forum
in Germany at least once(again long time here).
I have my hunch that the German users from Mecklenburg are part of wider of
effort by some branch of NPD to influnce Wikipedia.

2009/4/28 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>

> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 07:26, Christian Suciu <christiansuciu@yahoo.com>=
wrote:
>
>> OK, so no psychological warfare - I understand the message. It was a cra=
zy
>> idea conceived at 3 am when I should have been asleep. I just hope ArbCo=
m
>> doesn't receive that letter. In my defence, it was only a notion that ne=
ver
>> advanced beyond a single message.
>
>
> Psychological warfare perhaps, obvious and open harassment no.  This sort
> of harassment serves no useful purpose; any maddening aspects of it would=
 be
> severely reduced by Russavia deciding who would be behind it (no evidence=
 is
> needed for that, and the decision needs even not be accurate), and this s=
ort
> of thing is one of the few forms of incivility that Wikipedia's
> administrators actually care about -- partially because unlike with
> incivility, anonymous harassers almost never show up in AN/I threads.  If
> Russavia can plausibly claim that "his opponents" harassed him, all sorts=
 of
> future DR actions, including arbcom, are likely to consider him the victi=
m,
> and give credence to the idea that "his opponents" -- who may or may not =
be
> related to the harassment, must be the evildoers worth punishing.
>
> In short, it's a bad idea for purely pragmatic reasons.  If ethical reaso=
ns
> concur with pragmatism, the better.
>
> Still, I find it outrageous (though not wholly unsurprising) that a
>> dictatorship is perverting the encyclopedia to fit its propaganda messag=
e,
>> and I hope the champions of neutrality eventually emerge triumphant.
>>
>
> I do not think Wikipedia can rise out of the swamp it's currently in.  A
> replacement encyclop=E6dia might, but it'll have to overcome a lot of the
> issues that cause problems to Wikipedia.
>
> For the time being, Wikipedia has a lot of (undeserved) trust by people
> throughout the world, and our interests dictate that it should not contai=
n
> pure Kremlin's propaganda in the topics we care about, such as the "near
> abroad" region.  This battle we can win, and I suggest is this is what we
> should consider our primary Wikipedia-related goal.
>
> By the way, who else is using Wikipedia for propaganda? We know the CIA h=
as
>> edited, but I'm not sure what articles. How about the Chinese?
>>
>
> The Chinese government's censorship is mainly targeted at its own citizen=
s,
> out of fear that they might riot if they read about democracy and stuff.
>  They're much less concerned with China's image overseas than the Russian
> government is.  (Even so, Chinese ambassador in Estonia has at least once
> bothered to respond to a random anarchist's letter to Postimees' editor,
> carefully explaining how China brought culture and prosperity to Tibet,
> which is an integral part of China and not conquered.)
>
> I believe most notable groups using Wikipedia for propaganda are politica=
l
> factions, particularly a number of pressure groups, and commercial provid=
ers
> -- if they get caught, they're called spammers.  Suva has also proposed t=
hat
> somebody is systematically going through articles related to nuclear
> warfare, and making sure that these articles are riddled with errors and
> disinformation.  (In this light, Petri Krohn's interest in obscure nuclea=
r
> devices is rather peculiar.)  Conservapedia, for example, was created by
> people who attempted to influence Wikipedia, and then (mostly) gave up.  =
In
> immortal words of Bender: "Forget your stupid Wikipedia!  I'm gonna make =
my
> own!  With hookers!  And blackjack!"
>
> I have a vague impression that there are some very pro-PRC editors, but
>> also anti-Communist ones from Taiwan, Hong Kong & overseas. It would be
>> interesting to compare how Russia and China differ in their approach to
>> spreading propaganda on Wikipedia.
>>
>
> Some propaganda campaigns are geared towards retaining followers; others
> are geared towards drafting new followers or "educating" the outsiders ab=
out
> the One True Holy Truth.  Like Conservapedia, China is mostly interested =
in
> retaining its followers -- in interests of public tranquillity, it believ=
es.
>  Russia also has this goal, naturally, but Russia is much more interested=
 in
> sharing its own visions of past and grandeur with outsiders.
>
> Lying to their own people is ugly, but there's not a lot that we can do
> about it.  (SciFi has touched this topic on more than one occasion, by th=
e
> way.  Often, in idealised forms that do not work in real world.)  Lying t=
o
> other people is something that we can do something about.  It's not easy =
but
> it's possible.
>
> Belarus might be another interesting case, especially as Lukashenka's
>> relations with Russia cool.
>>
>
> My understanding is that Belarus is one of the closest imitations of what
> Soviet Union was in about 1988.  Interpolating that to the Internet era,
> most Belarusians probably do not have significant Internet access, have h=
ard
> time understanding English, and most of what we, as outsiders, can see of
> Belarus' Internet, is controlled by the government or its major
> corporations.  In this context, propaganda would be a bit of redundant.
>
> Venezuela and Iran probably have enough Western apologists not to have to
>> worry about spending their own money for propaganda.
>>
>
> Iran's totalitarianism is not based on ideological propaganda as much as
> raw sharia power.  It does maintain national censorship firewalls --
> ostensibly, for "smut" -- but this is secondary.
>
> Venezuela is more complicated.  I have heard a number of interesting
> rumours, but in the first approximation, it would seem that it's relying =
on
> propaganda measures from newspaper era -- which means that it does rely o=
n
> outsiders, perhaps expats, to distribute its goodwill overseas.
>
> And North Korea?
>>
>
> No Internet to speak of.  (Remember when Soviet Union had no sex?)
>  Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for dissidents, when you declare
> there is no Internet, Internet propaganda becomes harder for the governme=
nt,
> and easier for the outlaws.  It also means it's very hard to properly
> understand what's going on from outside.
>
> --
> Andres Soolo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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&quot;believe most notable groups using Wikipedia for propaganda are politi=
cal factions, particularly a number of pressure groups&quot;<br>Indeed I ha=
ve been once informed(long time ago) by one German group that certain=A0  G=
erman editors are part of right-wing nationalist organization editing Wiki.=
 I do remember they even had a blog of some sorts but details escape me. Al=
so I found mention of me and Piotr&#39;s on one nationalist forum in German=
y at least once(again long time here).<br>
I have my hunch that the German users from Mecklenburg are part of wider of=
 effort by some branch of NPD to influnce Wikipedia. <br><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">2009/4/28 Digwuren <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dig=
wuren@gmail.com">digwuren@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 07:26, Christian Suciu =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christiansuciu@yahoo.com" target=3D=
"_blank">christiansuciu@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
OK, so no psychological warfare - I understand the message. It was a crazy =
idea conceived at 3 am when I should have been asleep. I just hope ArbCom d=
oesn&#39;t receive that letter. In my defence, it was only a notion that ne=
ver advanced beyond a single message.</td>

</tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Psychological w=
arfare perhaps, obvious and open harassment no. =A0This sort of harassment =
serves no useful purpose; any maddening aspects of it would be severely red=
uced by Russavia deciding who would be behind it (no evidence is needed for=
 that, and the decision needs even not be accurate), and this sort of thing=
 is one of the few forms of incivility that Wikipedia&#39;s administrators =
actually care about -- partially because unlike with incivility, anonymous =
harassers almost never show up in AN/I threads. =A0If Russavia can plausibl=
y claim that &quot;his opponents&quot; harassed him, all sorts of future DR=
 actions, including arbcom, are likely to consider him the victim, and give=
 credence to the idea that &quot;his opponents&quot; -- who may or may not =
be related to the harassment, must be the evildoers worth punishing.</div>

<div><br></div><div>In short, it&#39;s a bad idea for purely pragmatic reas=
ons. =A0If ethical reasons concur with pragmatism, the better.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"im"><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">

<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Still, I find it outrageous (though not wholly unsurprising) that a di=
ctatorship is perverting the encyclopedia to fit its propaganda message, an=
d I hope the champions of neutrality eventually emerge triumphant.</div>

</td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I do not t=
hink Wikipedia can rise out of the swamp it&#39;s currently in. =A0A replac=
ement encyclop=E6dia might, but it&#39;ll have to overcome a lot of the iss=
ues that cause problems to Wikipedia.</div>

<div><br></div><div>For the time being, Wikipedia has a lot of (undeserved)=
 trust by people throughout the world, and our interests dictate that it sh=
ould not contain pure Kremlin&#39;s propaganda in the topics we care about,=
 such as the &quot;near abroad&quot; region. =A0This battle we can win, and=
 I suggest is this is what we should consider our primary Wikipedia-related=
 goal.</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-lef=
t: 1ex;"><table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr=
><td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inhe=
rit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-s=
ize-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">

<div>By the way, who else is using Wikipedia for propaganda? We know the CI=
A has edited, but I&#39;m not sure what articles. How about the Chinese?</d=
iv></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>The Chi=
nese government&#39;s censorship is mainly targeted at its own citizens, ou=
t of fear that they might riot if they read about democracy and stuff. =A0T=
hey&#39;re much less concerned with China&#39;s image overseas than the Rus=
sian government is. =A0(Even so, Chinese ambassador in Estonia has at least=
 once bothered to respond to a random anarchist&#39;s letter to Postimees&#=
39; editor, carefully explaining how China brought culture and prosperity t=
o Tibet, which is an integral part of China and not conquered.)</div>

<div><br></div><div>I believe most notable groups using Wikipedia for propa=
ganda are political factions, particularly a number of pressure groups, and=
 commercial providers -- if they get caught, they&#39;re called spammers. =
=A0Suva has also proposed that somebody is systematically going through art=
icles related to nuclear warfare, and making sure that these articles are r=
iddled with errors and disinformation. =A0(In this light, Petri Krohn&#39;s=
 interest in obscure nuclear devices is rather peculiar.) =A0Conservapedia,=
 for example, was created by people who attempted to influence Wikipedia, a=
nd then (mostly) gave up. =A0In immortal words of Bender: &quot;Forget your=
 stupid Wikipedia! =A0I&#39;m gonna make my own! =A0With hookers! =A0And bl=
ackjack!&quot;</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><t=
able border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=
=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-=
weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust=
: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>
I have a vague impression that there are some very pro-PRC editors, but als=
o anti-Communist ones from Taiwan, Hong Kong &amp; overseas. It would be in=
teresting to compare how Russia and China differ in their approach to
 spreading propaganda on Wikipedia.</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockq=
uote><div><br></div></div><div>Some propaganda campaigns are geared towards=
 retaining followers; others are geared towards drafting new followers or &=
quot;educating&quot; the outsiders about the One True Holy Truth. =A0Like C=
onservapedia, China is mostly interested in retaining its followers -- in i=
nterests of public tranquillity, it believes. =A0Russia also has this goal,=
 naturally, but Russia is much more interested in sharing its own visions o=
f past and grandeur with outsiders.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Lying to their own people is ugly, but there&#39;s not =
a lot that we can do about it. =A0(SciFi has touched this topic on more tha=
n one occasion, by the way. =A0Often, in idealised forms that do not work i=
n real world.) =A0Lying to other people is something that we can do somethi=
ng about. =A0It&#39;s not easy but it&#39;s possible.</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-lef=
t: 1ex;"><table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr=
><td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inhe=
rit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-s=
ize-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">

<div>Belarus might be another interesting case, especially as Lukashenka&#3=
9;s relations with Russia cool.</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote=
><div><br></div></div><div>My understanding is that Belarus is one of the c=
losest imitations of what Soviet Union was in about 1988. =A0Interpolating =
that to the Internet era, most Belarusians probably do not have significant=
 Internet access, have hard time understanding English, and most of what we=
, as outsiders, can see of Belarus&#39; Internet, is controlled by the gove=
rnment or its major corporations. =A0In this context, propaganda would be a=
 bit of redundant.</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><t=
able border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=
=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-=
weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust=
: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>
Venezuela and Iran probably have enough Western apologists not to have to w=
orry about spending their own money for propaganda.</div></td></tr></tbody>=
</table></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Iran&#39;s totalitarianism i=
s not based on ideological propaganda as much as raw sharia power. =A0It do=
es maintain national censorship firewalls -- ostensibly, for &quot;smut&quo=
t; -- but this is secondary.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Venezuela is more complicated. =A0I have heard a number=
 of interesting rumours, but in the first approximation, it would seem that=
 it&#39;s relying on propaganda measures from newspaper era -- which means =
that it does rely on outsiders, perhaps expats, to distribute its goodwill =
overseas.</div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><t=
able border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=
=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-=
weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust=
: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>
 And North Korea?</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>No Internet to speak of. =A0(Remember when Soviet Union had no sex?)=
 =A0Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for dissidents, when you declar=
e there is no Internet, Internet propaganda becomes harder for the governme=
nt, and easier for the outlaws. =A0It also means it&#39;s very hard to prop=
erly understand what&#39;s going on from outside.</div>

<div><br></div></div><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>
</font><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
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=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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