X-From_: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net Thu Jun 11 18:17:56 2009
Return-Path: <folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net>
Message-ID: <927742.99207.qm@web33303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: g7a7y2oVM1nDUBhU5ceqdtlp5zQqTv82fb7WaweQxjX1HXUunKtDRuYzLOCRLQ5Adj3FdLkBd32y5Gsu0nKSfO_u6_RKnNUuvnQ0YlT8OaMc1iSOU7A0XoYQpSu4MrQjsu1DkHO7kcNNYjarIPgya.T8XxUAryOpNRcJJra_3A1pEMAwFg8PjQLEZ.2Jy9tV2H7S3jnmF2sAlYgldePGyQmFKpfXMPnjdiEYMMpmsRLj1lX0JwXwKJwPE7QgvJSqEN8EpkOXz6hakyKAw8gD8G.CfsGckE_73JpBrKCZSzkwmkY4D2DXI5bG6BdfElNrE6k-
X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/5.4.12 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.15
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:17:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christian Suciu <christiansuciu@yahoo.com>
To: folks@wikipedometer.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Spam_score: 1.1
X-Spam_score_int: 11
X-Spam_bar: +
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
	similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  About dilution of the Szekely land (if one were inclined
	to do that): there are two ways Romanians have done or tried to do it in
	the last twenty years. One is economic development. The region currently
	is rather backward and insular, and development would necessitate
	bringing in people from other parts of the country. (Or from abroad, but
	there's little appetite for immigration, other than from Moldova.) For
	instance I heard a guy on a train last summer complain that he found a
	job at the history museum in Sfantu Gheorghe, but one of the drawbacks
	is he doesn't speak Hungarian. Well, if the town went from being 23%
	Romanian to 30, 40 and then 50%, he wouldn't have to worry that much.
	Although I know a Craiovan (PSD) county councilor from Miercurea Ciuc
	who was assigned to the area as a teacher in summer 1989, and he (and
	his wife) still only knows elementary Hungarian, and always speaks in
	Romanian at council meetings and in class, and people always reply in
	Romanian (unless they're small children or very old people in villages).
	Although his son, who grew up there, does know the language. Anyway,
	Szekely leaders have rejected the idea of accelerated economic
	development for these reasons, but then complain their region is
	backward. One example is the mining town ofÂ BÄƒlan, Harghita: 4.3%
	Romanian in 1956, now 64.8%, but still totally surrounded by Szekely
	villages. [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (1.1 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
	0.8 HTML_00_10             BODY: Message is 0% to 10% HTML
	-2.6 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	0.2 DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE     RBL: Envelope sender in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST      RBL: Envelope sender in
	postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.0 AWL                    AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on 
	pakkun.mirky.net
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50,
	DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE 
	autolearn=no version=3.1.7-deb
Subject: Re: [WPM] EU elections
X-BeenThere: folks@wikipedometer.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Id: Wikipedia statistics <folks.wikipedometer.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Help: <mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5762519448641706063=="
Mime-version: 1.0
Sender: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
Errors-To: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
X-Spam_score: 2.1
X-Spam_score_int: 21
X-Spam_bar: ++
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
	similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  About dilution of the Szekely land (if one were inclined
	to do that): there are two ways Romanians have done or tried to do it in
	the last twenty years. One is economic development. The region currently
	is rather backward and insular, and development would necessitate
	bringing in people from other parts of the country. (Or from abroad, but
	there's little appetite for immigration, other than from Moldova.) For
	instance I heard a guy on a train last summer complain that he found a
	job at the history museum in Sfantu Gheorghe, but one of the drawbacks
	is he doesn't speak Hungarian. Well, if the town went from being 23%
	Romanian to 30, 40 and then 50%, he wouldn't have to worry that much.
	Although I know a Craiovan (PSD) county councilor from Miercurea Ciuc
	who was assigned to the area as a teacher in summer 1989, and he (and
	his wife) still only knows elementary Hungarian, and always speaks in
	Romanian at council meetings and in class, and people always reply in
	Romanian (unless they're small children or very old people in villages).
	Although his son, who grew up there, does know the language. Anyway,
	Szekely leaders have rejected the idea of accelerated economic
	development for these reasons, but then complain their region is
	backward. One example is the mining town ofÂ BÄƒlan, Harghita: 4.3%
	Romanian in 1956, now 64.8%, but still totally surrounded by Szekely
	villages. [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (2.1 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
	0.8 HTML_00_10             BODY: Message is 0% to 10% HTML
	0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	-0.7 BAYES_20               BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 5 to 20%
	[score: 0.0772]
	0.2 DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE     RBL: Envelope sender in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST      RBL: Envelope sender in
	postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
	0.1 AWL                    AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list


--===============5762519448641706063==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-292425456-1244737066=:99207"


--0-292425456-1244737066=:99207
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

About dilution of the Szekely land (if one were inclined to do that): there=
 are two ways Romanians have done or tried to do it in the last twenty year=
s. One is economic development. The region currently is rather backward and=
 insular, and development would necessitate bringing in people from other p=
arts of the country. (Or from abroad, but there's little appetite for immig=
ration, other than from Moldova.) For instance I heard a guy on a train las=
t summer complain that he found a job at the history museum in Sfantu Gheor=
ghe, but one of the drawbacks is he doesn't speak Hungarian. Well, if the t=
own went from being 23% Romanian to 30, 40 and then 50%, he wouldn't have t=
o worry that much. Although I know a Craiovan (PSD) county councilor from M=
iercurea Ciuc who was assigned to the area as a teacher in summer 1989, and=
 he (and his wife) still only knows elementary Hungarian, and always speaks=
 in Romanian at council meetings and in class, and people always
 reply in Romanian (unless they're small children or very old people in vil=
lages). Although his son, who grew up there, does know the language. Anyway=
, Szekely leaders have rejected the idea of accelerated economic developmen=
t for these reasons, but then complain their region is backward.
One example is the mining town of=C2=A0B=C4=83lan, Harghita: 4.3% Romanian =
in 1956, now 64.8%, but still totally surrounded by Szekely villages.

(When Szekely speak Romanian, you can tell it's a foreign language for them=
 because they lack the distinct Transylvanian accent. Even Laszlo Borbely, =
who grew up in increasingly Romanian Targu Mures - I saw a TV interview wit=
h him the other day and his Romanian is halting at best. But Iuliu Winkler,=
 who grew up in Hunedoara, knows great Romanian. Incidentally, that reminds=
 me: one sees some Hungarians with German names, another example being the =
bishop of Satu Mare,=C2=A0Jen=C5=91 Sch=C3=B6nberger. That's because, outsi=
de the Saxon areas and the Banat, Catholic Germans were even more liable to=
 be Magyarized. For instance, Cluj/Kolozsv=C3=A1r/Klausenburg started out a=
s a German town, but it was too far away from the Sibiu area to maintain a =
viable German identity, and early on (14th century) became Hungarian in cha=
racter. An exception to this was Bistrita/Bistritz and surroundings, which =
retained a strong German (and, not coincidentally, Lutheran) presence despi=
te being
 very far from the other Saxon seats.
The second agent of change is the Church. The Orthodox Church has build man=
y monasteries in the region but without many monks, in order to mark the te=
rritory as Romanian. In 1994, a new diocese was established covering Covasn=
a and Harghita. The area now has the highest per capita number of priests p=
er Romanian inhabitant. The bishop has built churches, monasteries, cultura=
l centres, villages schools, and so on. He has bought up houses on the mark=
et and given them to poor Moldavians. So in a sense, the Church is (under t=
he radar) continuing what Ceausescu initiated.
This brings me to another point. Hungarians and Transylvanian Romanians (li=
ke my grandfather on my father's side, from=C2=A0Strem=C5=A3, Alba) usually=
 get along rather well. They've known each other for many generations in so=
me cases.*=C2=A0Problems begin when people come in from outside. For instan=
ce in=C2=A0Bra=C5=9Fov, where Germans, Hungarians and Romanians coexisted p=
eacefully, there was a powerful influx of Moldavians in the 1950s-'80s. Nat=
ive=C2=A0Bra=C5=9Fov Romanians shared German and Hungarian opinion of these=
 newcomers: poor, dirty, uneducated, rather than welcoming their fellow Rom=
anians.
*And when they were Greek Catholic, like my grandfather was, they sometimes=
 tended to be even closer to Hungarian Catholics. For instance their bishop=
 Iuliu Hossu, forcibly kept in an Orthodox monastery for years, considered =
the Orthodox church to be "polluted" (spurcat=C4=83) and walked around in c=
ircles outside during the Liturgy. His funeral was held by Hungarian Cathol=
ic priests. This sort of thing led philosopher Nichifor Crainic to rail aga=
inst Greek Catholicism in the 1930s, pushing for union with Orthodoxy, beca=
use "to be Romanian is to be Orthodox" and anything else is an unworkable c=
ompromise.
A note on the census: first, the 1910 census came during a period of heavy =
Magyarization, which is one reason Hungarian numbers increased compared to =
1880. Second, the "other" number went way up in 1930 because in 1910, Hunga=
rian-speaking Jews were counted as Hungarians and not Jews, which they were=
 in 1930. (The exception would be Timisoara, which had a Serbian population=
.) Satu Mare and Oradea especially had many Jews. Today, "other" is mainly =
the increasing Gypsy population.
About the map, you're right the author could simply have been misinformed. =
But I checked out Nicolae Iorga's interesting "Neamul Romanesc in Ardeal si=
 Tara Ungureasca la 1906"=C2=A0and he too refers to Sfantu Gheorghe as "Sep=
si-S=C3=A2n-Georgiu". Maybe the name just changed. He spends just six pages=
 on the Szekely land (Dorin, I can send those to you if you're interested),=
 and he too makes the distinction between full-blooded Szekely and former R=
omanian Szekely, some of whom were still practicing Orthodoxy in living mem=
ory, but had long forgotten the extent of their Romanian roots.=0A=0A=0A   =
   
--0-292425456-1244737066=:99207
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">About dilution of the Szekely land (if one we=
re inclined to do that): there are two ways Romanians have done or tried to=
 do it in the last twenty years. One is economic development. The region cu=
rrently is rather backward and insular, and development would necessitate b=
ringing in people from other parts of the country. (Or from abroad, but the=
re's little appetite for immigration, other than from Moldova.) For instanc=
e I heard a guy on a train last summer complain that he found a job at the =
history museum in Sfantu Gheorghe, but one of the drawbacks is he doesn't s=
peak Hungarian. Well, if the town went from being 23% Romanian to 30, 40 an=
d then 50%, he wouldn't have to worry that much. Although I know a Craiovan=
 (PSD) county councilor from Miercurea Ciuc who was assigned to the area as=
 a teacher in summer 1989, and he (and his wife) still only knows elementar=
y
 Hungarian, and always speaks in Romanian at council meetings and in class,=
 and people always reply in Romanian (unless they're small children or very=
 old people in villages). Although his son, who grew up there, does know th=
e language. Anyway, Szekely leaders have rejected the idea of accelerated e=
conomic development for these reasons, but then complain their region is ba=
ckward.<div><br></div><div>One example is the mining town of=C2=A0B=C4=83la=
n, Harghita: 4.3% Romanian in 1956, now 64.8%, but still totally surrounded=
 by Szekely villages.<br><div><br></div><div>(When Szekely speak Romanian, =
you can tell it's a foreign language for them because they lack the distinc=
t Transylvanian accent. Even Laszlo Borbely, who grew up in increasingly Ro=
manian Targu Mures - I saw a TV interview with him the other day and his Ro=
manian is halting at best. But Iuliu Winkler, who grew up in Hunedoara, kno=
ws great Romanian. Incidentally, that reminds me: one sees some Hungarians
 with German names, another example being the bishop of Satu Mare,=C2=A0Jen=
=C5=91 Sch=C3=B6nberger. That's because, outside the Saxon areas and the Ba=
nat, Catholic Germans were even more liable to be Magyarized. For instance,=
 Cluj/Kolozsv=C3=A1r/Klausenburg started out as a German town, but it was t=
oo far away from the Sibiu area to maintain a viable German identity, and e=
arly on (14th century) became Hungarian in character. An exception to this =
was Bistrita/Bistritz and surroundings, which retained a strong German (and=
, not coincidentally, Lutheran) presence despite being very far from the ot=
her Saxon seats.</div><div><br></div><div>The second agent of change is the=
 Church. The Orthodox Church has build many monasteries in the region but w=
ithout many monks, in order to mark the territory as Romanian. In 1994, a n=
ew diocese was established covering Covasna and Harghita. The area now has =
the highest per capita number of priests per Romanian inhabitant. The bisho=
p has
 built churches, monasteries, cultural centres, villages schools, and so on=
. He has bought up houses on the market and given them to poor Moldavians. =
So in a sense, the Church is (under the radar) continuing what Ceausescu in=
itiated.</div><div><br></div><div>This brings me to another point. Hungaria=
ns and <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: italic;">Trans=
ylvanian</span> Romanians (like my grandfather on my father's side, from=C2=
=A0Strem=C5=A3, Alba) usually get along rather well. They've known each oth=
er for many generations in some cases.*=C2=A0Problems begin when people com=
e in from outside. For instance in=C2=A0Bra=C5=9Fov, where Germans, Hungari=
ans and Romanians coexisted peacefully, there was a powerful influx of Mold=
avians in the 1950s-'80s. Native=C2=A0Bra=C5=9Fov Romanians shared German a=
nd Hungarian opinion of these newcomers: poor, dirty, uneducated, rather th=
an welcoming their fellow Romanians.</div><div><br></div><div>*And when the=
y were Greek Catholic,
 like my grandfather was, they sometimes tended to be even closer to Hungar=
ian Catholics. For instance their bishop Iuliu Hossu, forcibly kept in an O=
rthodox monastery for years, considered the Orthodox church to be "polluted=
" (<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: italic; ">spurcat=
=C4=83</span>) and walked around in circles outside during the Liturgy. His=
 funeral was held by Hungarian Catholic priests. This sort of thing led phi=
losopher Nichifor Crainic to rail against Greek Catholicism in the 1930s, p=
ushing for union with Orthodoxy, because "to be Romanian is to be Orthodox"=
 and anything else is an unworkable compromise.</div><div><br></div><div>A =
note on the census: first, the 1910 census came during a period of heavy Ma=
gyarization, which is one reason Hungarian numbers increased compared to 18=
80. Second, the "other" number went way up in 1930 because in 1910, Hungari=
an-speaking Jews were counted as Hungarians and not Jews, which they were i=
n
 1930. (The exception would be Timisoara, which had a Serbian population.) =
Satu Mare and Oradea especially had many Jews. Today, "other" is mainly the=
 increasing Gypsy population.</div><div><br></div><div>About the map, you'r=
e right the author could simply have been misinformed. But I checked out Ni=
colae Iorga's interesting "Neamul Romanesc in Ardeal si Tara Ungureasca la =
1906"=C2=A0and he too refers to Sfantu Gheorghe as "Sepsi-S=C3=A2n-Georgiu"=
. Maybe the name just changed. He spends just six pages on the Szekely land=
 (Dorin, I can send those to you if you're interested), and he too makes th=
e distinction between full-blooded Szekely and former Romanian Szekely, som=
e of whom were still practicing Orthodoxy in living memory, but had long fo=
rgotten the extent of their Romanian roots.</div></div></td></tr></table><b=
r>=0A=0A      
--0-292425456-1244737066=:99207--


--===============5762519448641706063==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks

--===============5762519448641706063==--


