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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Fortunately, Polish - Ukrainian topics have not become
	area of an edit war, despite a very complicated and bloody history of
	our two nations. Kudos to such users as Ostap (where are you), and
	Faustian (perhaps he could be added here), who are very cooperative and
	nice. The good thing is that both sides respect each other, and except
	for some minor clashes, things have been good. I know, some of my
	articles can be a little annoying to Ukrainian users (user MORDOOR was
	the worst individual I have ever seen), but I hope I am cooperative and
	open to discussion. Look e.g. at
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Huta_Pieniacka_massacre Tymek [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Polish nationalism (was More cabal theory)
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	Faustian (perhaps he could be added here), who are very cooperative and
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Fortunately, Polish - Ukrainian topics have not become area of an edit war,=
 despite a very complicated and bloody history of our two nations. Kudos to=
 such users as Ostap (where are you), and Faustian (perhaps he could be add=
ed here), who are very cooperative and nice. The good thing is that both si=
des respect each other, and except for some minor clashes, things have been=
 good. I know, some of my articles can be a little annoying to Ukrainian us=
ers (user MORDOOR was the worst individual I have ever seen), but I hope I =
am cooperative and open to discussion. Look e.g. at=20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Huta_Pieniacka_massacre
=A0
Tymek

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> wrote:


From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Polish nationalism (was More cabal theory)
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 12:53 PM


piotr micula wrote:
> Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do not really=20
> understand why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish history makes=
=20
> one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one of 5 major=20
> centers of Polish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan).=20

I think Molobo meant writing about Kresy and claiming they should be=20
Polish again, or to a lesser extent, trying to deny that they had=20
non-Polish significant minorities/majorities (kind of like our=20
Lithuanian "friends" ignoring the fact that pre-WWII Wilno had 2%=20
Lithuanians).

Those issues nicely show the problem of radicalization/poloarization.=20
How Polish was Szczecin? Not very, and we can admit it - but=20
Gdansk/Danzig and Silesia have quite a mixed history. Yet when you get=20
extremist - be it Pole insisting that Szczecin was Polish, or German who=20
sees Danzig as 100% German forever - others tend not only to disagree=20
with them but to slowly take a more extremist stance (if you say that=20
Danzig was German forever, maybe I will expand the Szczecin Polish=20
history and claim that Pomerania was Polish, without any caveats, just=20
to annoy you... hence the will of reasonable editors to compromise and=20
admit that history was gray evaporates, accusations of ethnic based=20
camps fly, those camps form due to those accusations (just like our=20
cabal) and we enter a vicious spiral...).

> Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists.=20
> Seems like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but=20
> describing Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect. This is not=20
> right, those events should be described, and I have a very strong=20
> opinion on it. Everybody knows about Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour=20
> (640 victims), but nobody knows about Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where=20
> more than 1000 Poles were murdered by axes in one day. Events like this=
=20
> have to be described, and writing about them does not make one a=20
> nationalist.

I haven't heard anything about this being politically incorrect, the=20
problem is more that it is under researched.

Still, I have to wonder if from a Ukrainian perspective, Polish editors=20
writing about those crimes are not as annoying as for Poles, MORDOOR=20
writing about yet another pogrom in Poland. When descendants of victims=20
write articles, there is always the feeling that they are attacking the=20
perpetrators... yet they are also more interested in those issues than=20
the perpetrators. If the editors on both side are reasonably calm,=20
neutral and willing to discuss the POV of both sides, there are few=20
problems (as, for some reasons, thankfully, seems to be the case of=20
Polish-Ukrainian history). To often, however, we have to deal with "true=20
believers", radicalization and resulting mess.


--=20
Piotr Konieczny

"The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in=20
theory."

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Fortunately, Polish - Ukrainian topics h=
ave not become area of an edit war, despite a very complicated and bloody h=
istory of our two nations. Kudos to such users as Ostap (where are you), an=
d Faustian (perhaps he could be added here), who are very cooperative and n=
ice. The good thing is that both sides respect each other, and except for s=
ome minor clashes, things have been good. I know, some of my articles can b=
e a little annoying to Ukrainian users (user MORDOOR was the worst individu=
al I have ever seen), but I hope I am cooperative and open to discussion. L=
ook e.g. at </DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Huta_Pieniacka_massacre">=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Huta_Pieniacka_massacre</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 6/15/09, Piotr Konieczny <I>&lt;piokon@pos=
t.pl&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Piotr Konieczny &lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;<BR>S=
ubject: Re: [WPM] Polish nationalism (was More cabal theory)<BR>To: "Wikipe=
dia statistics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Monday, June 15, 2=
009, 12:53 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>piotr micula wrote:<BR>&gt; Molobo, with all respect=
 I have to disagree here. I do not really <BR>&gt; understand why writing a=
bout Lviv and its very rich Polish history makes <BR>&gt; one a nationalist=
. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one of 5 major <BR>&gt; centers of Poli=
sh culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). <BR><BR>I think Molob=
o meant writing about Kresy and claiming they should be <BR>Polish again, o=
r to a lesser extent, trying to deny that they had <BR>non-Polish significa=
nt minorities/majorities (kind of like our <BR>Lithuanian "friends" ignorin=
g the fact that pre-WWII Wilno had 2% <BR>Lithuanians).<BR><BR>Those issues=
 nicely show the problem of radicalization/poloarization. <BR>How Polish wa=
s Szczecin? Not very, and we can admit it - but <BR>Gdansk/Danzig and Siles=
ia have quite a mixed history. Yet when you get <BR>extremist - be it Pole =
insisting that Szczecin was Polish, or German who <BR>sees Danzig as
 100% German forever - others tend not only to disagree <BR>with them but t=
o slowly take a more extremist stance (if you say that <BR>Danzig was Germa=
n forever, maybe I will expand the Szczecin Polish <BR>history and claim th=
at Pomerania was Polish, without any caveats, just <BR>to annoy you... henc=
e the will of reasonable editors to compromise and <BR>admit that history w=
as gray evaporates, accusations of ethnic based <BR>camps fly, those camps =
form due to those accusations (just like our <BR>cabal) and we enter a vici=
ous spiral...).<BR><BR>&gt; Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Uk=
rainian nationalists. <BR>&gt; Seems like it is OK to describe German or So=
viet atrocities, but <BR>&gt; describing Ukrainian atrocities is politicall=
y incorrect. This is not <BR>&gt; right, those events should be described, =
and I have a very strong <BR>&gt; opinion on it. Everybody knows about Lidi=
ce (340 victims) or Oradour <BR>&gt; (640 victims), but nobody knows
 about Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where <BR>&gt; more than 1000 Poles were =
murdered by axes in one day. Events like this <BR>&gt; have to be described=
, and writing about them does not make one a <BR>&gt; nationalist.<BR><BR>I=
 haven't heard anything about this being politically incorrect, the <BR>pro=
blem is more that it is under researched.<BR><BR>Still, I have to wonder if=
 from a Ukrainian perspective, Polish editors <BR>writing about those crime=
s are not as annoying as for Poles, MORDOOR <BR>writing about yet another p=
ogrom in Poland. When descendants of victims <BR>write articles, there is a=
lways the feeling that they are attacking the <BR>perpetrators... yet they =
are also more interested in those issues than <BR>the perpetrators. If the =
editors on both side are reasonably calm, <BR>neutral and willing to discus=
s the POV of both sides, there are few <BR>problems (as, for some reasons, =
thankfully, seems to be the case of <BR>Polish-Ukrainian history).
 To often, however, we have to deal with "true <BR>believers", radicalizati=
on and resulting mess.<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Piotr Konieczny<BR><BR>"The proble=
m about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in <BR>theory."<BR=
><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Wikipedia statistic=
s discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">fol=
ks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR><A href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mai=
lman/listinfo/folks" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailm=
an/listinfo/folks</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A   =
   
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