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Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:20:17 -0400
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From: Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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See here http://www.debka.com/index1.php

"Hizballah deploys chemical...". Those weapons could be quite effective in
population centers but perhaps not in Israel where almost everyone has  a
gas mask at home. Yes, these weapons and especially the biological ones are
only good against civilian population.

Export of weapons from Russia is tightly controlled as far as I know.

Someone removed all negative information from article "Viktor Bout" in
June.   I do not have any source about Russian government support of Bout,
they would never made such an active campaign to get him out of trouble
(there are many sources about that), unless he worked for them.



On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 07:48, Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I hope you realize that "criminals" can not get and transport that kind of
>> weapons without a direct order from Russian government ( a bribe would not
>> suffice).
>
>
> Indirect order.  Kremlin wouldn't go around giving orders to small-time
> crooks.  Somebody from Kremlin would pally around with the local Godfather;
> the order would trickle down via the usual chain of command; then,
> ultimately, small-time crooks would be hired to do the dirty smuggling job.
>  That is, if it was a weapon smuggling operation.
>
> It's not necessarily that the initiative would have come from the
> government, but even if it was proposed by the leading mafiosi, somebody
> from the government would necessarily have signed off a trade of arms of
> this level of strategic significance.  In the latter case, some sort of
> bribe could have been passed, but I wouldn't bet on it -- as far as I
> understand, top brass of Russian government corruption works more on a
> loyalty-and-patronage basis rather than direct *quid pro quo* bribery.
>  (But I might have been misled by the 'technocrat' image.)
>
> The legendary Bout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout) worked with
>> the approval from the very top. Hence they covered him when needed.
>>
>
> Do you have a public source for this?
>
> Whatever it was, that was a government-planned operation from the begining.
>> We only do not know what it really was. Maybe chemical weapons for Hisballah
>> to attack Israel, maybe rockets for North Korea to attack US.
>>
>
> The latter is feasible.  The former seems unlikely.  Chemical weapons are
> mostly useless for tactical purposes (well, at least in the usual sense;
> they are threatening enough to use in a terrorist attack); it seems unlikely
> this kind of project would have been undertaken for them.  I suppose it
> could have been some form of espionage chemical cargo, but that would not
> have a lot of bulk and would probably have been easier to deliver via ground
> or air transport.
>
> There are also other possibilities.  Algeria is nearby numerous Middle
> Eastern countries and could perhaps be a relatively safe (for the smugglers)
> gateway to Northern Africa; Russia has been trying to expand its influence
> in both of those regions.  And naturally, Mossad would be
> quite interested in what's happening in Israel's immediate neighbourhood.
>
> --
> Andres Soolo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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See here <a href=3D"http://www.debka.com/index1.php">http://www.debka.com/i=
ndex1.php</a><br><br>&quot;Hizballah deploys chemical...&quot;. Those weapo=
ns could be quite effective in population centers but perhaps not in Israel=
 where almost everyone has=A0 a gas mask at home. Yes, these weapons and es=
pecially the biological ones are only good against civilian population.<br>
<br>Export of weapons from Russia is tightly controlled as far as I know.<b=
r><br>Someone removed all negative information from article &quot;Viktor Bo=
ut&quot; in June.=A0=A0 I do not have any source about Russian government s=
upport of Bout, they would never made such an active campaign to get him ou=
t of trouble (there are many sources about that), unless he worked for them=
.<br>
<br>=A0=A0  <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:59 =
AM, Digwuren <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com">di=
gwuren@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.=
8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 07:48, =
Andrei Dombay <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wikibiophys@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">wikibiophys@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204=
); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

I hope you realize that &quot;criminals&quot; can not get and transport tha=
t kind of weapons without a direct order from Russian government ( a bribe =
would not suffice).</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Indirect order. =
=A0Kremlin wouldn&#39;t go around giving orders to small-time crooks. =A0So=
mebody from Kremlin would pally around with the local Godfather; the order =
would trickle down via the usual chain of command; then, ultimately, small-=
time crooks would be hired to do the dirty smuggling job. =A0That is, if it=
 was a weapon smuggling operation.</div>

<div><br></div><div>It&#39;s not necessarily that the initiative would have=
 come from the government, but even if it was proposed by the leading mafio=
si, somebody from the government would necessarily have signed off a trade =
of arms of this level of strategic significance. =A0In the latter case, som=
e sort of bribe could have been passed, but I wouldn&#39;t bet on it -- as =
far as I understand, top brass of Russian government corruption works more =
on a loyalty-and-patronage basis rather than direct <i>quid pro quo</i>=A0b=
ribery. =A0(But I might have been misled by the &#39;technocrat&#39; image.=
)</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Th=
e legendary Bout (<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout</a>) worked with the=
 approval from the very top. Hence they covered him when needed.<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Do you have a public source for this=
?</div><div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">
Whatever it was, that was a government-planned operation from the begining.=
 We only do not know what it really was. Maybe chemical weapons for Hisball=
ah to attack Israel, maybe rockets for North Korea to attack US.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>The latter is feasible.=A0=A0The for=
mer seems unlikely. =A0Chemical weapons are mostly useless for tactical pur=
poses (well, at least in the usual sense; they are threatening enough to us=
e in a terrorist attack); it seems unlikely this kind of project would have=
 been undertaken for them. =A0I suppose it could have been some form of esp=
ionage chemical cargo, but that would not have a lot of bulk and would prob=
ably have been easier to deliver via ground or air transport.</div>

<div><br></div><div>There are also other possibilities. =A0Algeria is nearb=
y numerous Middle Eastern countries and could perhaps be a relatively safe =
(for the smugglers) gateway to Northern Africa; Russia has been trying to e=
xpand its influence in both of those regions.=A0=A0And=A0naturally,=A0Mossa=
d=A0would=A0be quite=A0interested=A0in=A0what&#39;s happening in Israel&#39=
;s=A0immediate=A0neighbourhood.</div>

<div><br></div><div>--=A0</div></div>Andres Soolo<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
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=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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