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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 14:46:07 -0400
From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
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	Content preview: PetersJV@aol.com wrote: > I think the issue is more
	that
	Lokyz is very pro Lithuanian. And I have > to say that my own readings
	indicate the massive Nazi collaborationism > being painted on WP (edits
	often involving our Polish editors) is not > completely reflective of
	the facts. As in Latvia, the auxilliary police, > for example, were not
	all involved in Nazi atrocities nor, given > circumstances, can they all
	be described as willing participants or > collaborators in the sense of
	then also acting against their own people. > > There is a clear
	undercurrent that Poles who killed Lithuanians were > completely
	justified in doing so because they were all Nazi > collaborators and
	that this all had nothing to do with the > Polish-Lithuanian emnity
	built up between the wars. That's the real > issue here. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Can Lokyz be reported?
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	Content preview:  PetersJV@aol.com wrote: > I think the issue is more that
	Lokyz is very pro Lithuanian. And I have > to say that my own readings
	indicate the massive Nazi collaborationism > being painted on WP (edits
	often involving our Polish editors) is not > completely reflective of
	the facts. As in Latvia, the auxilliary police, > for example, were not
	all involved in Nazi atrocities nor, given > circumstances, can they all
	be described as willing participants or > collaborators in the sense of
	then also acting against their own people. > > There is a clear
	undercurrent that Poles who killed Lithuanians were > completely
	justified in doing so because they were all Nazi > collaborators and
	that this all had nothing to do with the > Polish-Lithuanian emnity
	built up between the wars. That's the real > issue here. [...] 
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PetersJV@aol.com wrote:
> I think the issue is more that Lokyz is very pro Lithuanian. And I have 
> to say that my own readings indicate the massive Nazi collaborationism 
> being painted on WP (edits often involving our Polish editors) is not 
> completely reflective of the facts. As in Latvia, the auxilliary police, 
> for example, were not all involved in Nazi atrocities nor, given 
> circumstances, can they all be described as willing participants or 
> collaborators in the sense of then also acting against their own people.
>  
> There is a clear undercurrent that Poles who killed Lithuanians were 
> completely justified in doing so because they were all Nazi 
> collaborators and that this all had nothing to do with the 
> Polish-Lithuanian emnity built up between the wars. That's the real 
> issue here.

Nothing is white and black, and there is no justification for 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubingiai_massacre for example.

Yet I will disagree that Lokyz or MK are not anti-Polish. There is a 
difference between being pro-one owns country (which is true for many of 
us here) and being anti-one country. Our recent Polish-Ukrainian dispute 
is a good example, we had several pro- editors on both sides, yet none 
of them (pawel and lvivske possibly not included in this, but they are 
marginal editors and not mmembers of this group anyway) are anti- the 
other side; hence we were able to discuss the issue peacefully, 
collaborate on articles, and in the worst case, agree to disagree in a 
civil fashion.

Lokyz and MK are anti-Polish; they never ever admit that Lithuanians 
collaborated with the Nazis, and try to blow anything that is bad about 
Polish totally out of the proportions, such as accusing Poles of 
attempts to carry out genocide in Lithuania. Respected Lithuanian 
historian Bubnys once in an interview with Gazeta Wyborcza clearly said 
that it is a sad fact that most Lithuanian WWII activity was working 
with the Nazis (which as we discussed previously is understandable, as 
for most Baltic States) but in Lithuania, there is a trend - supported 
by extremists but unfortunately popular enough in the mainstream as well 
- to try to not only whitewash the collaborators (understandable in any 
country) but to do so by portraying Poles as the root of all evil 
("Poles were trying to carry out a genocide in Lithuania so Lithuanias 
had to defend themselves"). This is NOT an attitude that creates a 
ground for good faithed discussions :(


-- 
Piotr Konieczny

"The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in 
theory."

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