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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:52:15 -0400
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From: Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: Sending people to Gulag was obviously an extermination
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Subject: Re: [WPM] [WMP] Snyder in NYT
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Sending people to Gulag was obviously an extermination (Solzhenitsyn called
this "extermination by labor"). But so were the Soviet "population
transfers". Some of them even had an official name in all Soviet textbooks
and newspapers: "Extermination of kulaks as a class", for example.

Other names were deceiving. For example,  the purpose of socialist
courts<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_court_%28Soviet_Union%29>was
"not to eliminate
terror <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Terror> ... but to substantiate
it and legitimize in principle".  Modern Western people can hardly imagine
that Soviet judges were ... terrorists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_law

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_law#cite_note-Pipes-0>

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:05 PM, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:

>  In a message dated 7/18/2009 2:52:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> digwuren@gmail.com writes:
>
> .Probably more significant difference between the Soviet and Nazi mass
> murder was not the way they used to dispose of the bodies but the fact that
> Nazis tended to keep count while the Soviets didn't care
>
>  One can make the argument one at least counted lives, no matter how
> horrific, while life, or the taking of life, meant nothing to the other.
>
> The issue is that the "counting" sets apart Hitler from Stalin. That is a
> difference in method.
>
> The journey: ripped from one's home and life, taken away in the most
> terrifying and wretched of circumstances in cattle trains, taken to a place
> to die, are the same. Those who focus on method (and Nazi propaganda and
> record keeping engineered to blame the local populace across Eastern Europe)
> and visit the sins of collaborators upon entire Baltic and Eastern European
> peoples utterly fail the moral obligation to build understanding and
> reconciliation based on the far more common WWII experience: not Eastern
> European collaborators assisting Hitler's terror against Jews, but both Jews
> and Eastern Europeans being carted away to their deaths.
>
> I expect I'll be writing to Prof. Snyder on that topic.
>
> /Peters
>
> ------------------------------
> Can love help you live longer? Find out now<http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweuslove00000001>
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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<br>Sending people to Gulag was obviously an extermination (Solzhenitsyn ca=
lled this &quot;extermination by labor&quot;). But so were the Soviet &quot=
;population transfers&quot;. Some of them even had an official name in all =
Soviet textbooks and newspapers: &quot;Extermination of kulaks as a class&q=
uot;, for example. <br>
<br>Other names were deceiving. For example,=A0 the purpose of <a href=3D"h=
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_court_%28Soviet_Union%29" title=3D"P=
eople&#39;s court (Soviet Union)">socialist courts</a> was &quot;not to eli=
minate <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Terror" title=3D"Great=
 Terror" class=3D"mw-redirect">terror</a> ... but to substantiate it and le=
gitimize in principle&quot;.=A0 Modern Western people can hardly imagine th=
at Soviet judges were ... terrorists. <br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_law">http://en.wikipedia.org=
/wiki/Soviet_law</a><br><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_=
law#cite_note-Pipes-0"><span></span></a>  <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:05 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:P=
etersJV@aol.com">PetersJV@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margi=
n: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><f=
ont color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">
<div>In a message dated 7/18/2009 2:52:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
<a href=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">digwuren@gmail.com<=
/a> writes:</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid blue; padding-left: 5px; margin=
-left: 5px;"><font style=3D"background-color: transparent;" color=3D"#00000=
0" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">
  <div align=3D"left"></div></font><font style=3D"background-color: transpa=
rent;" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">.Probably more significa=
nt difference between the Soviet=20
  and Nazi mass murder was not the way they used to dispose of the bodies b=
ut=20
  the fact that Nazis tended to keep count while the Soviets didn&#39;t=20
care</font></blockquote></font></div>
<div></div>
<div>One can make the argument one at least counted lives, no matter how=20
horrific, while life, or the taking of life, meant nothing to the other.</d=
iv>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>The issue is that the &quot;counting&quot; sets apart Hitler from Stal=
in. That is a=20
difference in method.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>The journey: ripped from one&#39;s home and life, taken away in the mo=
st=20
terrifying and wretched of circumstances in cattle trains, taken to a place=
 to=20
die, are the same. Those who focus on method (and Nazi propaganda and recor=
d=20
keeping engineered to blame the local populace across Eastern Europe) and v=
isit=20
the sins of collaborators upon=A0entire Baltic and Eastern European peoples=
=20
utterly fail the moral obligation to build understanding and reconciliation=
=20
based on the far more common WWII experience: not Eastern European collabor=
ators=20
assisting Hitler&#39;s terror=A0against Jews, but both Jews and Eastern Eur=
opeans=20
being carted away to their deaths.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>I expect I&#39;ll be writing to Prof. Snyder on that topic.</div><div>=
<div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>=A0</div>
<div>/Peters</div><div><br><font style=3D"color: black; font-family: arial,=
san-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; f=
ont-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: =
normal;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top: 10px;">
Can love help you live longer? <a href=3D"http://personals.aol.com/articles=
/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=3Demlweuslove00000001"=
 target=3D"_blank">Find out now</a>.</font></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
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<br></blockquote></div><br>

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