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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:18:41 +0300
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From: Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Thank you, Christian,
	that's an exhaustive overview. You
	pointed out a few things I totally forgot to mention, such as
	intermarriages and children becoming Romanian. I even had one such girl
	as classmate at the university, and it took more than a year until I
	learned her mother was Hungarian (she spoke very little to no
	Hungarian), but used her mother's madden name as an email avatar. Her
	family lived in Braila, which is nowhere near Transylvania. And she
	actually was a very smart person. I think I was to repeat once more a
	detail I mentioned before, to add to the list of cities and their
	populations by ethnicity presented above by Christian: before 1918,
	there were very few Romanians in cities of Transylvania in general. If
	you look at the absolute numbers (not percentages), you see that there
	is in fact very little assimilation process going on (although when it
	is exists, it is mostly towards becoming Romanian, not Hungarian), the
	main phenomenon being the movement of people from villages to cities.
	In
	fact if you look at population of villages now and a hundred years ago, 
	you see almost no change, while the overall population is up by 50%.
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Subject: Re: [WPM] EU elections
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	Content preview:  Thank you, Christian, that's an exhaustive overview. You
	pointed out a few things I totally forgot to mention, such as
	intermarriages and children becoming Romanian. I even had one such girl
	as classmate at the university, and it took more than a year until I
	learned her mother was Hungarian (she spoke very little to no
	Hungarian), but used her mother's madden name as an email avatar. Her
	family lived in Braila, which is nowhere near Transylvania. And she
	actually was a very smart person. I think I was to repeat once more a
	detail I mentioned before, to add to the list of cities and their
	populations by ethnicity presented above by Christian: before 1918,
	there were very few Romanians in cities of Transylvania in general. If
	you look at the absolute numbers (not percentages), you see that there
	is in fact very little assimilation process going on (although when it
	is exists, it is mostly towards becoming Romanian, not Hungarian), the
	main phenomenon being the movement of people from villages to cities. In
	fact if you look at population of villages now and a hundred years ago,
	you see almost no change, while the overall population is up by 50%.
	[...] 
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Thank you, Christian, that's an exhaustive overview.
You pointed out a few things I totally forgot to mention, such as
intermarriages and children becoming Romanian. I even had one such girl as
classmate at the university, and it took more than a year until I learned
her mother was Hungarian (she spoke very little to no Hungarian), but used
her mother's madden name as an email avatar. Her family lived in Braila,
which is nowhere near Transylvania. And she actually was a very smart
person.
I think I was to repeat once more a detail I mentioned before, to add to the
list of cities and their populations by ethnicity presented above by
Christian: before 1918, there were very few Romanians in cities of
Transylvania in general. If you look at the absolute numbers (not
percentages), you see that there is in fact very little assimilation process
going on (although when it is exists, it is mostly towards becoming
Romanian, not Hungarian), the main phenomenon being the movement of people
from villages to cities. In fact if you look at population of villages now
and a hundred years ago, you see almost no change, while the overall
population is up by 50%.

If you take the 3 small cities of Carei, Marghita and Salonta (where
Hungarians are almost or over 50%), plus add Hungarians from the big cities
like Cluj, Oradea, Satu Mare, Timisoara and Brasov (Hungarians are between
7.6% and 39.3% in these 5 cities), than you have already considered roughly
half of the non-Szekely Hungarians. If you do the same math for Romanians,
you'll find only 20% of them (of those in Transylvania) are in these 8
cities (well, basically in the last 5).

Hungarians played in medieval and modern period Transylvania the same role
Baltic Germans played in Estonia and Latvia. The difference is Transylvania
was not taken by Russians.

About Szeckely area. Small observations: 1) not only the Szekely capital
Targu-Mures is half-half ethnically, but roughly all villages to the west of
it are Romanian and all to the east are Hungarian. 2) If you look at the
1930 map (when county boundaries were a little bit different), you'll see
that the northern part of modern Harghita County was then in Mures County,
while most of the Hungarian villages between Targu-Mures and Harghita were
in Odorhei County (Harghita=Ciuc+Odorhei). The former areas are ethnicaly
Romanian in a mostly Hungarian county, while the latter area vice-versa.
When Ceausescu in 1968 cancelled Dej's regions that around 1950 replaced
counties, and re-introduced counties, he merged some of them and changed
some borders. Perhaps in this particular case the idea was to dilute
Hungarians in Harghita with Romanians. That can have the desired effect only
during a dictatorship. The result now is however that Romanians in Harghita
are almost foreign in their own country (and that in villages that for
centuries had almost no Hungarians), while in present Mures County 40%
Hungarians is too much to have political tranquility and too little to have
Hungarian language to dominate. The result is hostility of people towards
each other.

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Thank you, Christian, that&#39;s an exhaustive overview.=A0<div><br></div><=
div>You pointed out a few things I totally forgot to mention, such as inter=
marriages and children becoming Romanian. I even had one such girl as class=
mate at the university, and it took more than a year until I learned her mo=
ther was Hungarian (she spoke very little to no Hungarian), but used her mo=
ther&#39;s madden name as an email avatar. Her family lived in Braila, whic=
h is nowhere near Transylvania. And she actually was a very smart person.<d=
iv>
<br></div><div>I think I was to repeat once more a detail I mentioned befor=
e, to add to the list of cities and their populations by ethnicity presente=
d above by Christian: before 1918, there were very few Romanians in cities =
of Transylvania in general. If you look at the absolute numbers (not percen=
tages), you see that there is in fact very little assimilation process goin=
g on (although when it is exists, it is mostly towards becoming Romanian, n=
ot Hungarian), the main phenomenon being the movement of people from villag=
es to cities. In fact if you look at population of villages now and a hundr=
ed years ago, you see almost no change, while the overall population is up =
by 50%.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If you take the 3 small cities of Carei, Marghita and S=
alonta (where Hungarians are almost or over 50%), plus add Hungarians from =
the big cities like Cluj, Oradea, Satu Mare, Timisoara and Brasov (Hungaria=
ns are between 7.6% and 39.3% in these 5 cities), than you have already con=
sidered roughly half of the non-Szekely Hungarians. If you do the same math=
 for Romanians, you&#39;ll find only 20% of them (of those in Transylvania)=
 are in these 8 cities (well, basically in the last 5).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Hungarians played in medieval and modern period Transyl=
vania the same role Baltic Germans played in Estonia and Latvia. The differ=
ence is Transylvania was not taken by Russians.</div><div><br></div><div>
About Szeckely area. Small observations: 1) not only the Szekely capital Ta=
rgu-Mures is half-half ethnically, but roughly all villages to the west of =
it are Romanian and all to the east are Hungarian. 2) If you look at the 19=
30 map (when county boundaries were a little bit different), you&#39;ll see=
 that the northern part of modern Harghita County was then in Mures County,=
 while most of the Hungarian villages between Targu-Mures and Harghita were=
 in Odorhei County (Harghita=3DCiuc+Odorhei). The former areas are ethnical=
y Romanian in a mostly Hungarian county, while the latter area vice-versa. =
When Ceausescu in 1968 cancelled Dej&#39;s regions that around 1950 replace=
d counties, and re-introduced counties, he merged some of them and changed =
some borders. Perhaps in this particular case the idea was to dilute Hungar=
ians in Harghita with Romanians. That can have the desired effect only duri=
ng a dictatorship. The result now is however that Romanians in Harghita are=
 almost foreign in their own country (and that in villages that for centuri=
es had almost no Hungarians), while in present Mures County 40% Hungarians =
is too much to have political tranquility and too little to have Hungarian =
language to dominate. The result is hostility of people towards each other.=
=A0</div>
</div>

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