X-From_: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net Sun Jun 21 21:18:40 2009
Return-Path: <folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net>
Message-ID: <4A3E8803.1070706@post.pl>
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:20:35 -0400
From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US;
	rv:1.8.1.21) Gecko/20090303 MultiZilla/1.8.3.4e SeaMonkey/1.1.15
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
References: <ca3.534dabe2.376d98de@aol.com>	<4f045a880906191952h2c73b422w3e746cce1bf2ed5f@mail.gmail.com>	<4f045a880906191958u733dd063if7cd1f77d349e7be@mail.gmail.com>	<4A3E5CD3.6030301@post.pl>
	<25890ca0906211153w307205ceyb364d7ebcf5c45aa@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <25890ca0906211153w307205ceyb364d7ebcf5c45aa@mail.gmail.com>
X-Spam_score: -2.4
X-Spam_score_int: -23
X-Spam_bar: --
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software,
	running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or
	label similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  radek szulga wrote: > Having said that I think it's
	important to realize that Deacon's > analysis is spot on, except for the
	part about "this alliance goes > through Piotrus only" (I get a sense
	that Deacon is a little bit > blinded by his primeval animosity toward
	Piotrus). [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (-2.4 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ----------------------
	--------------------------------------------------
	0.1 FORGED_RCVD_HELO       Received: contains a forged HELO
	-2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.1 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb (2006-10-05) on 
	pakkun.mirky.net
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,
	FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.7-deb
Subject: Re: [WPM] Strategy (was It isn't over)
X-BeenThere: folks@wikipedometer.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Id: Wikipedia statistics <folks.wikipedometer.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Help: <mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
Errors-To: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
X-Spam_score: -2.4
X-Spam_score_int: -23
X-Spam_bar: --
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
	similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  radek szulga wrote: > Having said that I think it's
	important to realize that Deacon's > analysis is spot on, except for the
	part about "this alliance goes > through Piotrus only" (I get a sense
	that Deacon is a little bit > blinded by his primeval animosity toward
	Piotrus). [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (-2.4 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
	0.1 FORGED_RCVD_HELO       Received: contains a forged HELO
	-2.6 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.1 AWL                    AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list

radek szulga wrote:

> Having said that I think it's important to realize that Deacon's
> analysis is spot on, except for the part about "this alliance goes
> through Piotrus only" (I get a sense that Deacon is a little bit
> blinded by his primeval animosity toward Piotrus).

Also note the part of his comments that equals the power (numbers, 
activity) or Baltic editors to Russia. As I noted on Arbcom talk, and as 
we should point out more often, this is very untrue. First, there are 
much more Russian editors then Baltic ones; second, the fact that it is 
a "minority of Russian editors" vs "majority of Baltic editors" only 
means that is is an extremist majority vs a reasonable majority, not 
"extremists vs extremists".

> Strategy defines the basic aims. For all the scheming and plotting
> that we do here, the basic aim of everyone on this list is actually to
> build a better, factual, reliable source based, non pov, non undue,
> non fringe encyclopedia which truthfully reflects the complicated past
> of our respective regions. 

Hear, hear - which also means "build content, guys". Civility may be 
dead, but arbcom members do care a little more (although IMHO not 
enough) about how much encyclopedia building one does, compared to how 
much wikidramu they create (or are drawn into...).

> But when the bad guys don't play by the
> rules, a certain amount of scheming and plotting is necessary as a
> counter measure. So, beyond that primary goal, our basic aim is to
> contain and neutralize The Cartel.
> (it's Estonia and the Baltics right now but if another Irpen shows up
> they will very likely go after other places - as they have in the
> past).

Indeed. From my 5 years of Polish editor on Wikipedia perspective, I 
take it as a good sign that on the Russian front, we have defended the 
neutrality of Polish topics, and are now taking the fight to the enemy, 
and are able to defend our (mostly Baltic) allies.

> The problem of course would occur if these
> guys ever get together and coordinate, as they sometimes have in the
> past, on a limited basis.

Sadly, this often happens because of me. The very mention of "Piotrus" 
tends to draw some people in in order to oppose whatever I support :( 
Collateral damage from being so active, I guess.

> The Tactics is all the blocking and banning we want to get and how we
> get it. 

And all the blocking / banning we want to avoid :)

 > It mostly covers all the AE, ANI, 3RR etc. cases that we want
> to file and also how we defend against those cases which are filed
> against us. Whether to be quiet, or whether to stir up dramu.
> Assessing who is the biggest threat and what are their weaknesses;
> edit warring, incivility, other. Which editors should become engaged
> when and when should they stay out. Which editors that are not on this
> list can be regarded as close allies (Mosedchurte, Colchicum, etc.)
> Which admins are favorable. Longer term, per Piotrus' suggestion, it
> involves getting more of us into the ranks of admins, or pulling the
> vanishings to clear the records.

Both of that - getting admins and vanishing - is something that we need 
to discuss and plan NOW; I have to say I am somewhat disappointed in how 
almost nobody replies to those suggestions :(

> Logistics is the actual content related stuff - coordinating the
> reverts when needed so that no one violates 2RR, creating appropriate
> articles (like the Historical Truth Commission), exposure of created
> articles (which includes getting some of this stuff up on DYK and
> getting it to GA/FA status), talk page discussions and related
> matters. Remember that this is about information, but information not
> only has to be created  but also disseminated. Also very importantly,
> finding reliable sources since that pretty much renders the text
> untouchable (also, exposing the unreliability of others' sources when
> they try to sneak them in). Even though logistics comes at the bottom
> of this list in a way it's the most important part - at the end of the
> day what others will see is not how many blocks a given editor has on
> his record but what a particular article states about X, Y, and Z and
> whether or not that information is reliably sourced.

Most of that I'd classify as tactics, too. Logistics, for me, is stuff 
like this list (an expanding it), getting our own MediaWiki set up (on 
which we could design ready-to-be pasted Rf...s), learning how to use 
IMs for insta-speed reverts and alerts, and stuff like that.

-- 
Piotr Konieczny

"The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in 
theory."

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks

