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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:14:09 +0300
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From: Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  > > > This being the tradition, individuals are afraid
	to potentially annoy >> somebody. So, I expect for the time being all 14
	of the 33 seat to go to the >> European popular party and none to the
	British-Polish-Czech group. But >> potentially, there are a number of
	people there which are *moderately*eurocheptical. >> > > Personally,
	after having seen stuff like Californian tax revenues being > ruined by
	anti-tax fanatics getting elected into the state legislature, I'd >
	prefer strong Euroskeptics to do their stuff outside the
	Europarliament.
	> Some of them have some quite good points, but too much temptation is
	never > a good thing. > [...] 
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	Content preview:  > > > This being the tradition, individuals are afraid
	to potentially annoy >> somebody. So, I expect for the time being all 14
	of the 33 seat to go to the >> European popular party and none to the
	British-Polish-Czech group. But >> potentially, there are a number of
	people there which are *moderately*eurocheptical. >> > > Personally,
	after having seen stuff like Californian tax revenues being > ruined by
	anti-tax fanatics getting elected into the state legislature, I'd >
	prefer strong Euroskeptics to do their stuff outside the Europarliament.
	> Some of them have some quite good points, but too much temptation is
	never > a good thing. > [...] 
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>
>
> This being the tradition, individuals are afraid to potentially annoy
>> somebody. So, I expect for the time being all 14 of the 33 seat to go to=
 the
>> European popular party and none to the British-Polish-Czech group. But
>> potentially, there are a number of people there which are *moderately*eu=
rocheptical.
>>
>
> Personally, after having seen stuff like Californian tax revenues being
> ruined by anti-tax fanatics getting elected into the state legislature, I=
'd
> prefer strong Euroskeptics to do their stuff outside the Europarliament.
>  Some of them have some quite good points, but too much temptation is nev=
er
> a good thing.
>

Come on, 95% of the European officials are euro-utopists and often loose
connection with reality. It's one thing turning EU intro a unified economic
and social entity (which I fully support), and a different thing turning it
into a federation (integrating foreign affairs, military and eventually
dissolving the nation-states by disallowing them to legislate). It is clear
to me that European foreign policy is a total failure, it only provided a
route for Russia to blackmail the free world. As for military integration,
why would you want to build something to replace NATO unless you are
anti-NATO? Don't get me wrong, I do support a unified foreign policy and
military alliance, but with the condition that it extends to the entire fre=
e
world, that is to include USA, Canada, Brasil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia,
Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Israel, Turkey, Georgia, Ukrain=
e
(and to include now "neutral" Sweden, Austria, etc) in order to keep in
check the rough regimes in Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Syria, Russia, Iran,
Burma, North Korea.


>
> 11 seats go to the socialist, 5 to the liberals, and 3 are taken by Vadim=
's
>> party (which is a circus)
>>
>
> A constructive circus, or a destructive circus?
>

During the communist regime, Vadim ran a pamphlet magazine famous for
attacking dissidents. Becali is half-literate. What "constructive" you
expect from them? During the famous December 2006 Basescu's speech in the
Romanian Parliament with the report of the presidential commission
condamning communism, Vadim ran an ugly circus, interrupting it 20 times.


>
> Once upon a time, Estonia had a Royalist Party.  It consisted mostly of
> humorists, and did a lot of funny stuff with their 8 seats.  Yet, they we=
re
> quite constructive.
>
> > *L=E1szl=F3 T=F5k=E9s, Calvinist bishop and probable espionage agent fo=
r the
>> Hungarian spy > service
>>
>> He is part of the brain, not a low-level agent. Basically, currently his
>> only concern is to somehow contribute to distancing Hungarian minority f=
rom
>> Romania. And he is largely successful in that. He simply doesn't care ab=
out
>> any other issues.
>>
>
> What's the point?  What are his goals?
>
>
Hungary to take Transylvania from Romania. It's very simple.

You see, during the 14th  to 16th centuries, Transylvania (like the rest of
Europe) became more socially divided: the Hungarians assimilated most of th=
e
local nobility (at least the larger nobility, many one-village nobles were
left alone), who became first Catholic, then Calvinist (and
Hungarian-speaking), and together the upper class. The underclass was
Romanian-speaking, Orthodox, and then half-Orthodox, half-Greek Catholic.
That situation was preserved during the 250 years Habsburg rule, as well.
Only by the end of the 19th century, when elections (not universal, but
based on property quotas) were being held, Romanian politicians started to
have some say. And that say was through Vienna, not in Budapest, which rule=
d
everything locally. When in 1918 Romanians voted to join Romania, Hungarian=
s
were in shock. The problem is that only half of the Hungarians in Romania
(the Szekely) are territorially concentrated (and that in 2 counties in the
eastern Trannsylavania, far from Hungarian border). In the other 14
counties, Romanians are and were a majority (sometimes over 90%), while
Hungarians controlled only the cities. Since then, the cities grew 5-10
times in population, and Hungarians became a tiny minority stretched
throughout Transylvania. If you exclude the Szekely region, there is no way
to separate Hungarians from Romanians. Typically, a county consists of
500,000 population with 450,000 Romanians and 50,000 Hungarians (in 3 of 14
cases it is actually 400:100, and in 2-3 others or the 14 there are almost
no Hungarians). In total, non-Szekely Hungarians in Transylvania are
750,000. Szekely are 650,000, concentrated in 2 counties (and several near
villages, but that's because of Dej and Ceasescu messed up with geography,
which can be corrected). Total population of Transylvania is
7,250,000-7,500,000, of Romania in whole 22 million.

Dorin

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><span style=3D"border-collapse:collapse"><div>This being the tradition=
, individuals are afraid to potentially annoy somebody. So, I expect for th=
e time being all 14 of the 33 seat to go to the European popular party and =
none to the British-Polish-Czech group. But potentially, there are a number=
 of people there which are <i>moderately</i> eurocheptical.</div>

</span></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Personally, after havin=
g seen stuff like Californian tax revenues being ruined by anti-tax fanatic=
s getting elected into the state legislature, I&#39;d prefer strong Euroske=
ptics to do their stuff outside the Europarliament. =A0Some of them have so=
me quite good points, but too much temptation is never a good thing.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Come on, 95% of the European officia=
ls are euro-utopists and often loose connection with reality. It&#39;s one =
thing turning EU intro a unified economic and social entity (which I fully =
support), and a different thing turning it into a federation (integrating f=
oreign affairs, military and eventually dissolving the nation-states by dis=
allowing them to legislate). It is clear to me that European foreign policy=
 is a total failure, it only provided a route for Russia to blackmail the f=
ree world. As for military integration, why would you want to build somethi=
ng to replace NATO unless you are anti-NATO? Don&#39;t get me wrong, I do s=
upport a unified foreign policy and military alliance, but with the conditi=
on that it extends to the entire free world, that is to include USA, Canada=
, Brasil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South =
Korea, Israel, Turkey, Georgia, Ukraine (and to include now &quot;neutral&q=
uot; Sweden, Austria, etc) in order to keep in check the rough regimes in V=
enezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Syria, Russia, Iran, Burma, North Korea. =A0</div=
>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv></div><div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><span style=3D"border-co=
llapse:collapse"><div>11 seats go to the socialist, 5 to the liberals, and =
3 are taken by Vadim&#39;s party (which is a circus)</div>

</span></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>A constructive circus, =
or a destructive circus?</div><div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>During the communist regime, Vadim ran a pamphlet magazine famous for =
attacking dissidents. Becali is half-literate. What &quot;constructive&quot=
; you expect from them? During the famous December 2006 Basescu&#39;s speec=
h in the Romanian Parliament with the report of the presidential commission=
 condamning communism, Vadim ran an ugly circus, interrupting it 20 times.<=
/div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><br></div><div>Once upon a time, Estonia had a Royalist Party. =A0It con=
sisted mostly of humorists, and did a lot of funny stuff with their 8 seats=
. =A0Yet, they were quite constructive.</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>&gt; *L=E1szl=F3 T=F5k=
=E9s, Calvinist bishop and probable espionage agent for the Hungarian spy &=
gt; service<br>

</div><div>
<div><br></div></div><div>He is part of the brain, not a low-level agent. B=
asically, currently his only concern is to somehow contribute to distancing=
 Hungarian minority from Romania. And he is largely successful in that. He =
simply doesn&#39;t care about any other issues.</div>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>What&#39;s the point? =A0What are hi=
s goals?</div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#888888"><font=
 class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#000000"><br></font></font></div></div=
></blockquote>
</div><br><div>Hungary to take Transylvania from Romania. It&#39;s very sim=
ple.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>You see, during the 14th =A0to 16th centur=
ies, Transylvania (like the rest of Europe) became more socially divided: t=
he Hungarians assimilated most of the local nobility (at least the larger n=
obility, many one-village nobles were left alone), who became first Catholi=
c, then Calvinist (and Hungarian-speaking), and together the upper class. T=
he underclass was Romanian-speaking, Orthodox, and then half-Orthodox, half=
-Greek Catholic. That situation was preserved during the 250 years Habsburg=
 rule, as well. Only by the end of the 19th century, when elections (not un=
iversal, but based on property quotas) were being held, Romanian politician=
s started to have some say. And that say was through Vienna, not in Budapes=
t, which ruled everything locally. When in 1918 Romanians voted to join Rom=
ania, Hungarians were in shock. The problem is that only half of the Hungar=
ians in Romania (the Szekely) are territorially concentrated (and that in 2=
 counties in the eastern Trannsylavania, far from Hungarian border). In the=
 other 14 counties, Romanians are and were a majority (sometimes over 90%),=
 while Hungarians controlled only the cities. Since then, the cities grew 5=
-10 times in population, and Hungarians became a tiny minority stretched th=
roughout Transylvania. If you exclude the Szekely region, there is no way t=
o separate Hungarians from Romanians. Typically, a county consists of 500,0=
00 population with 450,000 Romanians and 50,000 Hungarians (in 3 of 14 case=
s it is actually 400:100, and in 2-3 others or the 14 there are almost no H=
ungarians). In total, non-Szekely Hungarians in Transylvania are 750,000. S=
zekely are 650,000, concentrated in 2 counties (and several near villages, =
but that&#39;s because of Dej and Ceasescu messed up with geography, which =
can be corrected). Total population of Transylvania is 7,250,000-7,500,000,=
 of Romania in whole 22 million.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Dorin</div>

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