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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:23:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do
	not really understand why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish
	history makes one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one
	of 5 major centers of Polish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and
	Poznan). At the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically
	non-existent, as this city hardly had any ties with Poland. Vilnius and
	Lviv are a very important part of Polish history and tradition, much
	more important than Wroclaw, and one cannot really write about Poland
	without mentioning these two cities. It is impossible, just look at the
	list of famous Polish people from Lviv. Also, another point I disagree
	are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. Seems like it is OK to describe
	German or Soviet atrocities, but describing Ukrainian atrocities is
	politically incorrect. This is not right, those events should be
	described, and I have a very strong opinion on it. Everybody knows about
	Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour (640 victims), but nobody knows about
	Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where more than 1000 Poles were murdered by
	axes in one day. Events like this have to be described, and writing
	about them does not make one a nationalist. A remark. In Opole there is
	an exhibition of photos of these crimes. One of the photos shows a man
	named Jozef Kilkarski from Poczapy, county Zlotow. The description says
	"Married to a Ukrainian woman, murdered by own son by order of OUN/UIA, 
	1944". Tymek [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory
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	Content preview:  Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do
	not really understand why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish
	history makes one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one
	of 5 major centers of Polish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and
	Poznan). At the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically
	non-existent, as this city hardly had any ties with Poland. Vilnius and
	Lviv are a very important part of Polish history and tradition, much
	more important than Wroclaw, and one cannot really write about Poland
	without mentioning these two cities. It is impossible, just look at the
	list of famous Polish people from Lviv. Also, another point I disagree
	are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. Seems like it is OK to describe
	German or Soviet atrocities, but describing Ukrainian atrocities is
	politically incorrect. This is not right, those events should be
	described, and I have a very strong opinion on it. Everybody knows about
	Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour (640 victims), but nobody knows about
	Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where more than 1000 Poles were murdered by
	axes in one day. Events like this have to be described, and writing
	about them does not make one a nationalist. A remark. In Opole there is
	an exhibition of photos of these crimes. One of the photos shows a man
	named Jozef Kilkarski from Poczapy, county Zlotow. The description says
	"Married to a Ukrainian woman, murdered by own son by order of OUN/UIA,
	1944". Tymek [...] 
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Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do not really understan=
d why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish history makes one a natio=
nalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one of 5 major centers of Polish =
culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). At the same time, Polish=
 history of Szczecin is basically non-existent, as this city hardly had any=
 ties with Poland. Vilnius and Lviv are a very important part of Polish his=
tory and tradition, much more important than Wroclaw, and one cannot really=
 write about Poland without mentioning these two cities. It is impossible, =
just look at the list of famous Polish people from Lviv.=20
=A0
Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. Seems =
like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but describing Ukrai=
nian atrocities is politically incorrect. This is not right, those events s=
hould be described, and I have a very strong opinion on it. Everybody knows=
 about Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour (640 victims), but nobody knows abou=
t Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where more than 1000 Poles were murdered by ax=
es in one day. Events like this have to be described, and writing about the=
m does not make one a nationalist.
=A0
A remark. In Opole there is an exhibition of photos of these crimes. One of=
 the photos shows a man named Jozef Kilkarski from Poczapy, county Zlotow. =
The description says "Married to a Ukrainian woman, murdered by own son=A0b=
y order of OUN/UIA, 1944".=A0
=A0
Tymek
=A0

--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 11:48 AM


The funny thing is that I am very opposed to the idea of Polish
nationalism and actually tried to stay away from the Kresy topics, and
the whole debates about Lviv, Vilnius which are core points of
nationalism in Poland.
My impression was that any mention of German war crimes Germany
related facts(for example Herero Genocide) was categorised as
expression 'Polish nationalism'.
Likewise note that any information about Polish presence or history of
areas that in the past became German is presented by German users such
as Karasek or Skapperod as 'lies', 'communist propaganda' and 'Polish
nationalism'.

2009/6/14 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>:
> Miacek and his crime-fighting dog wrote:
>> You seem to have rather well familiarized yourself with different
>> types of German nationalist, Neo-Nazi, Holocaust denial accounts and
>> similar trolls in Wiki. Do you happen to recall some Polish
>> nationalists, too, whom you've encountered here in wiki?
>
> One editor who comes to mind as the best case study of true Polish
> nationalist on en wiki is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krzyzowiec
> He represented the Polish far right neo-Nazi/endencja fringe
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland) - pro-Radio
> Maryja, pro-endecja*, anti-semitic, anti-liberal, etc. Due to the
> extreme form of some of his edits, incivility and edit warring, he got a
> 1-year ban that will expire in November.
>
> The pro-Silesia faction that Molobo mentioned is represented by
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LUCPOL
> His English are poor, and hence he is not very active here.
>
> And then there is the infamous
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Serafin
> but to be honest, I know little about him. He was never involved in
> Polish community, and seems be content creating socks to edit war on
> Copernicus and such. Still, due to his activity, he is somewhat known.
> He was banned and discussed mostly without my knowledge (or regret),
> which also proves the importance of being a part of a community/cabal if
> one wants to successfully edit controversial articles.
>
> Finally, it may be interesting to try to analyze why editors such as
> Molobo, Halibutt (great loss to Wikipedia that he left...), or even
> myself are being called by some "Polish nationalists". In particular,
> our enemies seem to have successfully portrayed Molobo as a "Polish
> nationalist"; before Molobo comes back to Wikipedia, it is imperative
> that we figure out how this happened so that his new incarnation
> (whether it is in a year or sooner) will not get the same label.
>
> *the endecja issue is one where I think we could, if needed, try to
> create an impression of conflict among Polish wikipedians, as I know
> some of us are pro-endecja and others are anti-endecja. But I don't see
> much benefit from creating (an appearance of) such a conflict.
>
>
> --
> Piotr Konieczny
>
> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
> theory."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Molobo, with all respect I have to disag=
ree here. I do not really understand why writing about Lviv and its very ri=
ch Polish history makes one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius wer=
e one of 5 major centers of Polish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw an=
d Poznan). At the same time, Polish history of Szczecin is basically non-ex=
istent, as this city hardly had any ties with Poland. Vilnius and Lviv are =
a very important part of Polish history and tradition, much more important =
than Wroclaw, and one cannot really write about Poland without mentioning t=
hese two cities. It is impossible, just look at the list of famous Polish p=
eople from Lviv. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. S=
eems like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but describing =
Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect. This is not right, those eve=
nts should be described, and I have a very strong opinion on it. Everybody =
knows about Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour (640 victims), but nobody knows=
 about Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where more than 1000 Poles were murdered =
by axes in one day. Events like this have to be described, and writing abou=
t them does not make one a nationalist.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A remark. In Opole there is an exhibition of photos of these crimes. O=
ne of the photos shows a man named Jozef Kilkarski from Poczapy, county Zlo=
tow. The description says "Married to a Ukrainian woman, murdered by own so=
n&nbsp;by order of OUN/UIA, 1944".&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 6/14/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;molobus@gmail.com&gt;=
</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;molobus@gmail.com&gt;<BR>=
Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory<BR>To: "Wikipedia statistics" &lt;folk=
s@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 11:48 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>The funny thing is that I am very opposed to the ide=
a of Polish<BR>nationalism and actually tried to stay away from the Kresy t=
opics, and<BR>the whole debates about Lviv, Vilnius which are core points o=
f<BR>nationalism in Poland.<BR>My impression was that any mention of German=
 war crimes Germany<BR>related facts(for example Herero Genocide) was categ=
orised as<BR>expression 'Polish nationalism'.<BR>Likewise note that any inf=
ormation about Polish presence or history of<BR>areas that in the past beca=
me German is presented by German users such<BR>as Karasek or Skapperod as '=
lies', 'communist propaganda' and 'Polish<BR>nationalism'.<BR><BR>2009/6/14=
 Piotr Konieczny &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dpiokon@post.pl" ymailto=3D"mailto:piokon@post.pl">piokon@post.pl</A>&gt=
;:<BR>&gt; Miacek and his crime-fighting dog wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; You seem to=
 have rather well familiarized yourself with different<BR>&gt;&gt; types of
 German nationalist, Neo-Nazi, Holocaust denial accounts and<BR>&gt;&gt; si=
milar trolls in Wiki. Do you happen to recall some Polish<BR>&gt;&gt; natio=
nalists, too, whom you've encountered here in wiki?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; One edi=
tor who comes to mind as the best case study of true Polish<BR>&gt; nationa=
list on en wiki is <A href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krzyzowiec"=
 target=3D_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krzyzowiec</A><BR>&gt; H=
e represented the Polish far right neo-Nazi/endencja fringe<BR>&gt; (<A hre=
f=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland" target=3D_bla=
nk>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revival_of_Poland</A>) - pro-Radio=
<BR>&gt; Maryja, pro-endecja*, anti-semitic, anti-liberal, etc. Due to the<=
BR>&gt; extreme form of some of his edits, incivility and edit warring, he =
got a<BR>&gt; 1-year ban that will expire in November.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The =
pro-Silesia faction that Molobo mentioned is represented by<BR>&gt; <A
 href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LUCPOL" target=3D_blank>http://e=
n.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LUCPOL</A><BR>&gt; His English are poor, and henc=
e he is not very active here.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; And then there is the infamou=
s<BR>&gt; <A href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Serafin" target=3D_b=
lank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Serafin</A><BR>&gt; but to be honest=
, I know little about him. He was never involved in<BR>&gt; Polish communit=
y, and seems be content creating socks to edit war on<BR>&gt; Copernicus an=
d such. Still, due to his activity, he is somewhat known.<BR>&gt; He was ba=
nned and discussed mostly without my knowledge (or regret),<BR>&gt; which a=
lso proves the importance of being a part of a community/cabal if<BR>&gt; o=
ne wants to successfully edit controversial articles.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Final=
ly, it may be interesting to try to analyze why editors such as<BR>&gt; Mol=
obo, Halibutt (great loss to Wikipedia that he left...), or even<BR>&gt;
 myself are being called by some "Polish nationalists". In particular,<BR>&=
gt; our enemies seem to have successfully portrayed Molobo as a "Polish<BR>=
&gt; nationalist"; before Molobo comes back to Wikipedia, it is imperative<=
BR>&gt; that we figure out how this happened so that his new incarnation<BR=
>&gt; (whether it is in a year or sooner) will not get the same label.<BR>&=
gt;<BR>&gt; *the endecja issue is one where I think we could, if needed, tr=
y to<BR>&gt; create an impression of conflict among Polish wikipedians, as =
I know<BR>&gt; some of us are pro-endecja and others are anti-endecja. But =
I don't see<BR>&gt; much benefit from creating (an appearance of) such a co=
nflict.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; --<BR>&gt; Piotr Konieczny<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =
"The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in<BR>&=
gt; theory."<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ______________________________________________=
_<BR>&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<BR>&gt; <A
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer=
.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A=
><BR>&gt; <A href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folk=
s" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks<=
/A><BR>&gt;<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Wikip=
edia statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedo=
meter.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR><A href=3D"http://wikipedometer.n=
et/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer.net=
/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table=
><br>=0A=0A      
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