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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 06:14:47 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: What is ironic Piotrus is that similiar nationalists
	arguments used against Ukrainians are used by Germans against Poles.
	That Poles weren't a developed nation, and Germans "educated" Poles,
	developed their country, that Germans were good for Poles during
	Partitions, that Poles expelled "native" Germans from regions were
	Germans were always loved by Poles.I have seen such poison talk used
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Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
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	Content preview:  What is ironic Piotrus is that similiar nationalists
	arguments used against Ukrainians are used by Germans against Poles.
	That Poles weren't a developed nation, and Germans "educated" Poles,
	developed their country, that Germans were good for Poles during
	Partitions, that Poles expelled "native" Germans from regions were
	Germans were always loved by Poles.I have seen such poison talk used
	against Ukrainians by Polish nationalists. [...] 
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What is ironic Piotrus is that similiar nationalists arguments used
against Ukrainians are used by Germans against Poles. That Poles
weren't a developed nation, and Germans "educated" Poles, developed
their country, that Germans were good for Poles during Partitions,
that Poles expelled "native" Germans from regions were Germans were
always loved by Poles.I have seen such poison talk used against
Ukrainians by Polish nationalists.

2009/8/3 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>:
> piotr micula wrote:
>> Hillock, let us be realistic. When did Polish government ethnically
>> cleanse the Ukrainians?
>
> Perhaps he means Operacja Wis=B3a?
>
> I am not familiar with Pacifikacija, neither.
>
> http://web.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/lect17.htm is a roughly reliable
> source, and unless other estimates are presented I will accept 20,000,
> however as far I can tell this is the number of Ukranians, not Ukrainian
> civilians, so it probably includes a number of armed UPA fighters, not
> only women and children.
>
> Numbers are important. If Nazis killed 1,000 Jews instead of several
> millions, the Holocaust would be a tragic footnote in a history, not a
> major subject.
>
> Do note that no Poles here (I hope) are denying that AK did commit
> massacres. However, our point is that it was a rare occurrence for AK,
> and much more common for UPA (both in terms of total numbers and as a %
> of overall actions) - so attempts to draw moral equivalency are not
> fair. Again, this is not to say that all of AK was perfect, and all of
> UPA was only anti-Polish. We should note that if anywhere, the Volhynia
> District of AK was probably the most guilty of such atrocities, hence
> the Ukrainian view of AK is probably the most colored by local perspectiv=
e.
>
> Anyway, I strongly suggest we all try to calm down and understand that
> it is a difficult issues. For my Polish colleagues, I'd like to remind
> you that for Ukrainians, discussion of UPA is as painful as for us,
> discussing Jedwabne or Kielce or such. Please try to approach this in
> the same fashion as you'd like Jewish editors to approach those
> Polish-Jewish topics.
>
> Hillock, thank you for the clarifications about controversial role of
> UPA in Ukrainian politics, it was quite interesting; if this is not
> discussed on Wikipedia I think this would be a worthy addition.
>
> And I do think Hillock was right about the potential for Russian
> propaganda to exploit those issues.
>
> --
> Piotr Konieczny
>
> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
> theory."
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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