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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "O. G." <hillock@yahoo.ca>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
In-Reply-To: <100735.66988.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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	Content preview: I don't see anybody even trying to justify killing of
	innocent civilians. That's where we all agree. However, the history of
	Polish-Ukrainian relationships is not that simple, not black and white.
	Atrocities were committed by BOTH sides. As well many bad things
	happened before and after the war. The only thing where we seem to
	differ with the Poles that they somehow believe that they were the only
	victims of genocide (?!). The truth is that BOTH sides suffered, BOTH
	sides committed atrocities against innocent civilians. The difference
	is
	only in numbers. It is just as wrong to blame the whole of UPA and OUN
	for atrocities as the whole of AK for revenge atrocities. For whatever
	reason they happened, there can never be an excuse. This also cannot
	deny their fight for freedom of our respective peoples. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  I don't see anybody even trying to justify killing of
	innocent civilians. That's where we all agree. However, the history of
	Polish-Ukrainian relationships is not that simple, not black and white.
	Atrocities were committed by BOTH sides. As well many bad things
	happened before and after the war. The only thing where we seem to
	differ with the Poles that they somehow believe that they were the only
	victims of genocide (?!). The truth is that BOTH sides suffered, BOTH
	sides committed atrocities against innocent civilians. The difference is
	only in numbers. It is just as wrong to blame the whole of UPA and OUN
	for atrocities as the whole of AK for revenge atrocities. For whatever
	reason they happened, there can never be an excuse. This also cannot
	deny their fight for freedom of our respective peoples. [...] 
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I don't see anybody even trying to justify killing of innocent civilians. T=
hat's where we all agree. However, the history of Polish-Ukrainian relation=
ships is not that simple, not black and white. Atrocities were committed by=
 BOTH sides. As well many bad things happened before and after the war. The=
 only thing where we seem to differ with the Poles that they somehow believ=
e that they were the only victims of genocide (?!). The truth is that BOTH =
sides suffered, BOTH sides committed atrocities against innocent civilians.=
 The difference is only in numbers. It is just as wrong to blame the whole =
of UPA and OUN for atrocities as the whole of AK for revenge atrocities. Fo=
r whatever reason they happened, there can never be an excuse. This also ca=
nnot deny their fight for freedom of our respective peoples. =


I said it a while ago that only the enemies of Poland and Ukraine can benef=
it from stirring this hatred between the two peoples. You can see even now =
who is benefiting already:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DtGp7gtMe6sE&eu=
rl=3Dhttp://lj-toys.com/%3Fjournalid%3D15830977%26moduleid%3D280%26preview%=
3D%26auth_token%3Dsessionless:1250834400:embedcontent:15830977%2526280%2526=
:a3&feature=3Dplayer_embedded



--- On Fri, 8/21/09, piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Received: Friday, August 21, 2009, 11:24 AM
> Thanks Peters for your
> interesting comment, it always is appreciated.
> =A0
> I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get
> rid of the Poles, the situation was similar to the numerous
> Poles in the interbellum, who wanted to get rid of the Jews.
> The difference is that no Polish party or organization even
> suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The
> ideal was to move them somewhere out of the country, most
> preferrably to Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is
> that they did not only endorse the killings, but actually
> organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform us
> of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away.
> They just came to the villages and began the slaughter
> without any warning. Anyway, even if they had warned the
> Poles, it does not really change anything. =

> =A0
> What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian
> stated that the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they
> gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for people deported to
> Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what
> would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the
> Latvians from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they
> deported them to Siberia?
> =A0
> My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass
> murder of civilians can be excused. Whether it is the
> Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles killing Jews in Jedwabne.
> Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had all the
> reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated
> with Soviet regime, and their cooperation resulted in
> thousands of Poles deported to Siberia. But this is not an
> excuse. Never, under no circumstances. =

> =A0
> Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can
> justify the Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all,
> 85% of population of=A0 Katowice and 74% of population of
> Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,=A0and still these
> cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian
> Slaughter, we can try to=A0justify the Germans. They had
> all the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population
> of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and=A066% of
> Torun=A0was German.=A0Nine years later, these cities
> became part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles
> were in the minority as well. Still, nobody justifies the
> Germans.
> =A0
> Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by
> saying that the Germans only wanted to remove Poles from
> what they regarded as German lands, and they gave a notice
> before transferring the civilian=A0population to central
> Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the
> discrimination of German minority of Poland was so severe
> that 85% Germans had left Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson).
> Yet, no German uses this as a justification for the events
> of WW2.
> =

> It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than
> any other nationality. I know it, and I do not find any
> excuses for Jedwabne, Pawlokoma, or Polish mobs attacking
> the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919. Attacking and
> murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And
> those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.
> =A0
> Tymek
> =

> =

> =

>       =

> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> =

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