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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 19:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  For starters,
	there has been no single apology from the
	Ukrainian side. What is more important, 80% bones of Poles murdered in
	Volhynia have not been properly buried, and lie there in Volhynian and
	Podolian fields, among villages burned to the ground. Don't you think
	that Ukrainian authorities should at least give permission for
	exhumations of these remains? [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
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For starters, there has been no single apology from the Ukrainian side. Wha=
t is more important, 80%=A0bones of Poles murdered in Volhynia have not bee=
n properly buried, and lie there in Volhynian and Podolian fields, among vi=
llages burned to the ground. Don't you think that Ukrainian authorities sho=
uld at least give permission for exhumations of these remains?=20

It is not about playing UPA card. It is about remembering history and those=
 who were murdered for nothing. Should we all sweep this topic under the ca=
rpet and forget it forever? If so, let us erase all history articles on Wik=
ipedia, and demand closing of all museums, with Museum of Holocaust as firs=
t.
=A0
Tymek

--- On Sun, 8/2/09, O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca> wrote:


From: O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 8:33 PM



I was just wondering how many apologizing does it take to put this thing be=
hind us? People keep forgetting that issue of UPA is very divisive in Ukrai=
ne and it runs along linguistic and geopolitical divisions as well. There a=
re millions of Ukrainians who will always regard UPA as heroes in spite of =
everything, just because in Western Ukraine every other family was associat=
ed with them in some way or suffered collective punishment for their activi=
ties. Yet on the state level UPA is still not recognized as the WWII partic=
ipant. I am from central Ukraine and have nothing to do with UPA but still =
consider them heroes just as the Red Army vets, because millions of my comp=
atriots do so on both sides of the divide. There are different views on thi=
s in every family, people don't bring it up in company. It is EXTREMELY div=
isive and volatile topic, interference of outsiders in this brings it to th=
e whole new level. I only hope Poland won't be playing the UPA card
as Russia has for so many years. It will be devastating for both peoples.

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> wrote:

> From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 6:42 AM
> O. G. wrote:
> > But in spite of that, for millions of Ukrainians UPA
> always will be heroes, because they fought for the freedom
> of their country.=20
>=20
> One men's terrorist is another men's hero, and there is no
> denying that.=20
> This is also an attitude of many Lithuanian editors, and
> presumably a=20
> sentiment shared more widely among the eastern countries. I
> can=20
> understand and I cannot blame those who after Soviet
> repression saw=20
> German Nazis as liberators. They couldn't know what was
> really going on.
>=20
> Still, one should be able to admit one made a mistake. Just
> as Poles=20
> should (and in some instances, did) apologize for the
> exceptional but=20
> real massacres committed by AK and other Poles
> (Jedwabne...), so should=20
> those who threw their lot in with the Nazis and worked with
> them=20
> apologize for all the suffering that they caused.
>=20
> Bottom line is that there is no white and black, there are
> always shades=20
> of gray (but shades that can be sometimes compared!), and
> we have to=20
> admit that many heroes were also, at the same time,
> criminals.
>=20
> > PS I wouldn't be surprised if Russia were
> clandestinely financing people in Poland bringing this issue
> over and over again. Just a guess...
>=20
> Good point, again. Let's not loose the sight of the bigger
> picture.
>=20
> --=20
> Piotr Konieczny
>=20
> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in
> reality, not in=20
> theory."
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>=20


=A0 =A0 =A0 _______________________________________________________________=
___
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http=
://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>For starters, there has been no single a=
pology from the Ukrainian side. What is more important, 80%&nbsp;bones of P=
oles murdered in Volhynia have not been properly buried, and lie there in V=
olhynian and Podolian fields, among villages burned to the ground. Don't yo=
u think that Ukrainian authorities should at least give permission for exhu=
mations of these remains? <BR></DIV>
<DIV>It is not about playing UPA card. It is about remembering history and =
those who were murdered for nothing. Should we all sweep this topic under t=
he carpet and forget it forever? If so, let us erase all history articles o=
n Wikipedia, and demand closing of all museums, with Museum of Holocaust as=
 first.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 8/2/09, O. G. <I>&lt;hillock@yahoo.ca&gt;</I></B> w=
rote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: O. G. &lt;hillock@yahoo.ca&gt;<BR>Subject: =
Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.<BR>To: "Wikipedia stati=
stics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 8:3=
3 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail><BR>I was just wondering how many apologizing does i=
t take to put this thing behind us? People keep forgetting that issue of UP=
A is very divisive in Ukraine and it runs along linguistic and geopolitical=
 divisions as well. There are millions of Ukrainians who will always regard=
 UPA as heroes in spite of everything, just because in Western Ukraine ever=
y other family was associated with them in some way or suffered collective =
punishment for their activities. Yet on the state level UPA is still not re=
cognized as the WWII participant. I am from central Ukraine and have nothin=
g to do with UPA but still consider them heroes just as the Red Army vets, =
because millions of my compatriots do so on both sides of the divide. There=
 are different views on this in every family, people don't bring it up in c=
ompany. It is EXTREMELY divisive and volatile topic, interference of outsid=
ers in this brings it to the whole new level. I only hope Poland won't
 be playing the UPA card<BR>as Russia has for so many years. It will be dev=
astating for both peoples.<BR><BR>--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Piotr Konieczny &lt;<=
A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dpiokon@post.pl" ym=
ailto=3D"mailto:piokon@post.pl">piokon@post.pl</A>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; F=
rom: Piotr Konieczny &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dpiokon@post.pl" ymailto=3D"mailto:piokon@post.pl">piokon@post.pl</A=
>&gt;<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.<=
BR>&gt; To: "Wikipedia statistics" &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wiki=
pedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A>&gt;<BR>&gt; Received: Monday, Au=
gust 3, 2009, 6:42 AM<BR>&gt; O. G. wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; But in spite of tha=
t, for millions of Ukrainians UPA<BR>&gt; always will be heroes, because th=
ey fought for the freedom<BR>&gt; of their country. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; One m=
en's
 terrorist is another men's hero, and there is no<BR>&gt; denying that. <BR=
>&gt; This is also an attitude of many Lithuanian editors, and<BR>&gt; pres=
umably a <BR>&gt; sentiment shared more widely among the eastern countries.=
 I<BR>&gt; can <BR>&gt; understand and I cannot blame those who after Sovie=
t<BR>&gt; repression saw <BR>&gt; German Nazis as liberators. They couldn't=
 know what was<BR>&gt; really going on.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Still, one should =
be able to admit one made a mistake. Just<BR>&gt; as Poles <BR>&gt; should =
(and in some instances, did) apologize for the<BR>&gt; exceptional but <BR>=
&gt; real massacres committed by AK and other Poles<BR>&gt; (Jedwabne...), =
so should <BR>&gt; those who threw their lot in with the Nazis and worked w=
ith<BR>&gt; them <BR>&gt; apologize for all the suffering that they caused.=
<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bottom line is that there is no white and black, there ar=
e<BR>&gt; always shades <BR>&gt; of gray (but shades that can be
 sometimes compared!), and<BR>&gt; we have to <BR>&gt; admit that many hero=
es were also, at the same time,<BR>&gt; criminals.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; PS=
 I wouldn't be surprised if Russia were<BR>&gt; clandestinely financing peo=
ple in Poland bringing this issue<BR>&gt; over and over again. Just a guess=
...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Good point, again. Let's not loose the sight of the bi=
gger<BR>&gt; picture.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -- <BR>&gt; Piotr Konieczny<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt; "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in<BR>&gt; rea=
lity, not in <BR>&gt; theory."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ___________________________=
____________________<BR>&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<BR>&gt; <=
A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedomete=
r.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</=
A><BR>&gt; <A href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fol=
ks"
 target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A=
><BR>&gt; <BR><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ________________________________=
__________________________________<BR>Get the name you've always wanted @ym=
ail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to <A href=3D"http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jac=
ko/" target=3D_blank>http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/</A><BR><BR>_________=
______________________________________<BR>Wikipedia statistics discussion l=
ist<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wiki=
pedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedomet=
er.net</A><BR><A href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/=
folks" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fo=
lks</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A      
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