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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:13:04 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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" Why would Germany want swastika emblems back? "

Oh not those. But idolization of Prussia, perceived "civlizational" role of
Germany, showing German Empire in the good light-those are things I talked
about.

But switching to Wikipedia-I noticed a certain quite obvious tactic of
German nationalists-they know that accusing Jews or praising Nazis is
something that will destroy them quickly. So they can prove their
"neutrality" by denoucing Nazis and expressing concern for Jews, while
keeping other elements of German nationalism intact.

Both Matthead and Skapperod have done this, and here is a excellent recent
example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk%3AWorld_War_II&diff=3D2966=
38985&oldid=3D296605616
Note the fragment"Adolf Hitler caused the second world war through the
terror against the jews and through the "Liqiuidierung der rest-Tschechei".
But the war against poland is another thing"

This is what I observed and write about :)

I wonder if Stalinists will ever learn to copy this more cunning attempts.

Of course the equivalent of Russian editors would be those praising Imperia=
l
Russia while denoucing Stalinist Russia. Although this doesn't seem
likely-German nationalism seems more unified then Russian one in which
Stalinists are far more hated by pre-Stalinist nationalists then German
Nazis by "German Empire" kind of types


2009/6/16 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>

> 2009/6/16 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>
>> My impression is that knowledge of German atrocities is very much
>> neglected in modern times. For example while Katyn is often remembered y=
ou
>> don't hear much about Pia=FAnica, or Selbstschutz camps where much more =
people
>> were murdered.
>>
>
> Well, the Holocaust tends to overshadow German atrocities of lesser scale=
.
>  But while this is understandable in daily news media, encyclop=BFdias sh=
ould
> not be subject to such overshadowing.
>
> You also don't hear that in most of those cases Germans were never
>> sentenced or punished after the war. I guess it is connected to EU effor=
t
>> for "harmonious coexistance"-not cenzorship but simply unwillgness of so=
me
>> to write about things that will not serve further european integration.
>>
>
> I doubt it's political.  I suspect it's psychological, probably related t=
o
> the same low-hanging fruit effect.
>
> Again, understandable in daily news, but shouldn't effect
> encyclop=BFdia-building.  Naturally, Wikipedia can not escape the fact th=
at
> the best-known cases draw most new users' interest, but there are also so=
me
> long-time editors on Wikipedia, and with some support, the lesser-known
> notable cases should be maintainable, too.
>
> Lately I realised that while our newspaper Wyborcza writes about old Sovi=
et
>> emblems being returned to Russia or old members of regime continuing the=
ir
>> normall life, it almost never touches about similiar things in Germany.
>>
>
> Russia cares about Soviet emblems.  Why would Germany want swastika emble=
ms
> back?  It's already got museums full of this stuff, and it doesn't have a=
ny
> other use for them.
>
> Furthermore, Germany actually has double problem, in that it also has to
> reintegrate the formerly Soviet half, including the hundred thousand form=
er
> Stasi agents.
>
> --
> Andres Soolo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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&quot; Why would Germany want swastika emblems back? &quot;<br><br>Oh not t=
hose. But idolization of Prussia, perceived &quot;civlizational&quot; role =
of Germany, showing German Empire in the good light-those are things I talk=
ed about.<br>
<br>But switching to Wikipedia-I noticed a certain quite obvious tactic of =
German nationalists-they know that accusing Jews or praising Nazis is somet=
hing that will destroy them quickly. So they can prove their &quot;neutrali=
ty&quot; by denoucing Nazis and expressing concern for Jews, while keeping =
other elements of German nationalism intact.<br>
<br>Both Matthead and Skapperod have done this, and here is a excellent rec=
ent example:<br><br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3D=
Talk%3AWorld_War_II&amp;diff=3D296638985&amp;oldid=3D296605616">http://en.w=
ikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk%3AWorld_War_II&amp;diff=3D296638985&a=
mp;oldid=3D296605616</a><br>
Note the fragment&quot;Adolf Hitler caused the second world war through the=
 terror against the
jews and through the &quot;Liqiuidierung der rest-Tschechei&quot;. But the =
war
against poland is another thing&quot;<br><br>This is what I observed and wr=
ite about :)<br><br>I wonder if Stalinists will ever learn to copy this mor=
e cunning attempts.<br><br>Of course the equivalent of Russian editors woul=
d be those praising Imperial Russia while denoucing Stalinist Russia. Altho=
ugh this doesn&#39;t seem likely-German nationalism seems more unified then=
 Russian one in which Stalinists are far more hated by pre-Stalinist nation=
alists then German Nazis by &quot;German Empire&quot; kind of types<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/6/16 Digwuren <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com">digwuren@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,=
 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/6/16 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span><div class=3D"im"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddi=
ng-left: 1ex;">

<div>My impression is that knowledge of German atrocities is very much negl=
ected in modern times. For example while Katyn is often remembered you don&=
#39;t hear much about Pia=FAnica, or Selbstschutz camps where much more peo=
ple were murdered.</div>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Well, the Holocaust tends to oversha=
dow German atrocities of lesser scale. =A0But while this is understandable =
in daily news media, encyclop=BFdias should not be subject to such overshad=
owing.</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv>You also don&#39;t hear that in most of those cases Germans were never s=
entenced or punished after the war. I guess it is connected to EU effort fo=
r &quot;harmonious coexistance&quot;-not cenzorship but simply unwillgness =
of some to write about things that will not serve further european integrat=
ion.</div>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I doubt it&#39;s political. =A0I sus=
pect it&#39;s psychological, probably related to the same low-hanging fruit=
 effect.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, understandable in daily news, but =
shouldn&#39;t effect encyclop=BFdia-building. =A0Naturally, Wikipedia can n=
ot escape the fact that the best-known cases draw most new users&#39; inter=
est, but there are also some long-time editors on Wikipedia, and with some =
support, the lesser-known notable cases should be maintainable, too.</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv>Lately I realised that while our newspaper Wyborcza writes about old=A0S=
oviet emblems=A0being returned to Russia or old=A0members of regime continu=
ing their normall life, it almost never touches about=A0similiar things in =
Germany.</div>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Russia cares about Soviet emblems. =
=A0Why would Germany want swastika emblems back? =A0It&#39;s already got mu=
seums full of this stuff, and it doesn&#39;t have any other use for them.</=
div>
<div>
<br></div><div>Furthermore, Germany actually has double problem, in that it=
 also has to reintegrate the formerly Soviet half, including the hundred th=
ousand former Stasi agents.</div><div><br></div></div><font color=3D"#88888=
8">-- <br>
Andres Soolo<br>

</font><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
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=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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