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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:19:52 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Ugh, can't let this go while we're on the subject. But
	the subject is Ukraine and it's worth keeping in mind that the
	Ukrainians weren't exactly big fans of Denikin either, and his belated
	recognition of Poland came basically at a time when anyone with an
	ounce
	of sense knew he was lost. Denikin, whatever his other merits, was very
	much fighting for the Russian Empire as she existed in, oh, I dunno,
	1850. Both in terms of the question of non-Russians and the social
	situation (and one doesn't have to be a commie to realize that the
	great
	masses of people were being seriously screwed over). Wrangel was
	smarter
	and better but he was also fighting from a corner. His genius lay in
	the
	fact that he managed to make the anti-Bolshevik forces last that long, 
	despite the odds - but w/o outside support, specifically w/o help from
	Poland he didn't have a chance. He dealt with the issue of Polish
	independence and also Ukrainian independence by basically stating that
	he was open to considering the possibility (unlike Denikin who for 99%
	of time said he was just plain ol' refused it) - but only once the
	Bolsheviks were defeated. Understandably, both the Poles and the
	Ukrainians - and let's not forget that a lot of Ukrainians fought
	against Wrangel as much as they fought against Trotsky and Pilsudski
	(not even bringing fringe people like Makhno into it) - didn't see that
	as a straight up offer. This is part of what lost the WR the war -
	their
	refusal to recognize the basic facts on the ground and the indepenence
	movements, both Polish and Ukrainian, that in a lot of ways could've
	been their natural allies. From Poland's point of view a buffer state
	of
	an independent Ukraine would've been quite an advantage 10 years later
	-
	and the fact that Dmowski engineered the screwing over of Petliura (for
	what reason exactly? purely personal political gain?) is on him. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  Ugh, can't let this go while we're on the subject. But
	the subject is Ukraine and it's worth keeping in mind that the
	Ukrainians weren't exactly big fans of Denikin either, and his belated
	recognition of Poland came basically at a time when anyone with an ounce
	of sense knew he was lost. Denikin, whatever his other merits, was very
	much fighting for the Russian Empire as she existed in, oh, I dunno,
	1850. Both in terms of the question of non-Russians and the social
	situation (and one doesn't have to be a commie to realize that the great
	masses of people were being seriously screwed over). Wrangel was smarter
	and better but he was also fighting from a corner. His genius lay in the
	fact that he managed to make the anti-Bolshevik forces last that long,
	despite the odds - but w/o outside support, specifically w/o help from
	Poland he didn't have a chance. He dealt with the issue of Polish
	independence and also Ukrainian independence by basically stating that
	he was open to considering the possibility (unlike Denikin who for 99%
	of time said he was just plain ol' refused it) - but only once the
	Bolsheviks were defeated. Understandably, both the Poles and the
	Ukrainians - and let's not forget that a lot of Ukrainians fought
	against Wrangel as much as they fought against Trotsky and Pilsudski
	(not even bringing fringe people like Makhno into it) - didn't see that
	as a straight up offer. This is part of what lost the WR the war - their
	refusal to recognize the basic facts on the ground and the indepenence
	movements, both Polish and Ukrainian, that in a lot of ways could've
	been their natural allies. From Poland's point of view a buffer state of
	an independent Ukraine would've been quite an advantage 10 years later -
	and the fact that Dmowski engineered the screwing over of Petliura (for
	what reason exactly? purely personal political gain?) is on him. [...] 
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Ugh, can't let this go while we're on the subject. But the subject is
Ukraine and it's worth keeping in mind that the Ukrainians weren't exactly
big fans of Denikin either, and his belated recognition of Poland came
basically at a time when anyone with an ounce of sense knew he was lost.
Denikin, whatever his other merits, was very much fighting for the Russian
Empire as she existed in, oh, I dunno, 1850. Both in terms of the question
of non-Russians and the social situation (and one doesn't have to be a
commie to realize that the great masses of people were being seriously
screwed over). Wrangel was smarter and better but he was also fighting from
a corner. His genius lay in the fact that he managed to make the
anti-Bolshevik forces last that long, despite the odds - but w/o outside
support, specifically w/o help from Poland he didn't have a chance. He deal=
t
with the issue of Polish independence and also Ukrainian independence by
basically stating that he was open to considering the possibility (unlike
Denikin who for 99% of time said he was just plain ol' refused it) - but
only once the Bolsheviks were defeated. Understandably, both the Poles and
the Ukrainians - and let's not forget that a lot of Ukrainians fought
against Wrangel as much as they fought against Trotsky and Pilsudski (not
even bringing fringe people like Makhno into it) - didn't see that as a
straight up offer.
This is part of what lost the WR the war - their refusal to recognize the
basic facts on the ground and the indepenence movements, both Polish and
Ukrainian, that in a lot of ways could've been their natural allies. From
Poland's point of view a buffer state of an independent Ukraine would've
been quite an advantage 10 years later - and the fact that Dmowski
engineered the screwing over of Petliura (for what reason exactly? purely
personal political gain?) is on him.

Radek

2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

> Sure, If you have the time to print out here is a nice article from Andrz=
ej
> Nowak that was published in Arcana touching upon the subject:
> http://www.tylkoprawda.akcja.pl/ojm063.html
>
>
>
> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 03:05 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.c=
om>napisa=B3:
>
> I'd love to continue this conversation. But it's time to go since the tra=
in
>> is early in the morning. Next time.
>>
>>
>> Radek
>>
>>
>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>
>>> "I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refus=
ed
>>> to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on th=
e
>>> subject matter)."
>>> Actually Denikin agreed at last to Polish state-but with the border on
>>> Bug, which Pilsudski refused and allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin
>>> armies.
>>> As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv the=
y
>>> offered no resources, no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish
>>> majority almost anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps,
>>> marshes, hostile population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland h=
ad
>>> developed agriculture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn't n=
eed
>>> any anymore at that price. Besides-they required constant police
>>> supervision, where the breeding ground of resistance against Poland, dr=
ained
>>> money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not build its position on
>>> agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its army and modern
>>> transporation.
>>> You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:
>>> http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php
>>>
>>> They show how big wasteland the Kresy were.  It makes me cry that Poles
>>> lost so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their
>>> nationalism.
>>>
>>>
>>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>> rsszulga@gmail.com> napisa=B3:
>>>
>>>> I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refus=
ed
>>>> to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on t=
he
>>>> subject matter). The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Cu=
rzon
>>>> line vs. Silesia) could actually have been made. Pilsudski was
>>>> understandably afraid that compromising on either would mean a loss of=
 both.
>>>> I think he was right in that regard.elo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From a purely economic point of view I'm not so sure that the coal of
>>>> Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and especial=
ly
>>>> commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry, coa=
l,
>>>> steel and all that. But that's only because Britain, which was the fir=
st to
>>>> industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on services.
>>>> Belgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricultur=
al
>>>> products. France's "industrialization" (a misnomer) was in good part
>>>> agriculture driven. So I don't think that getting the mineral rich Sil=
esia
>>>> instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something worth fighting =
for -
>>>> on economic grounds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Radek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't have illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative  and
>>>>> more part of Entente would not hesitate to help in defeating
>>>>> Bolsheviks-which is an accusation oft given against Pilsudski who wit=
held
>>>>> from cooperation and military thrust when WR needed it the most. To
>>>>> counterbalance him a stronger Russia would be needed, which is ok as =
it
>>>>> would likely deny IIWW with Germany. A Poland largely on Curzon Line =
and
>>>>> more of Silesia would be a richer, safer and better Poland IMHO. And =
Russia
>>>>> would have to federate anyway. And of course what is usually forgotte=
n is
>>>>> that Endeks as supporters of neoslavism were more supportive of allia=
nce
>>>>> with Czechoslovakia. But as you know it's AH today.
>>>>>
>>>>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com> napisa=B3:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's certainly possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was
>>>>>> too little too late - still, I think he had the right idea though po=
ssibly
>>>>>> at the wrong time. His ideas though should've been given a chance an=
d not
>>>>>> have been torpodoed by Dmowski's people who were motivated much more=
 by
>>>>>> "racism" (if that's an appropriate term here) which eventually resul=
ted in
>>>>>> the pacifications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any kind of clea=
rly
>>>>>> defined national interest. I think you're giving Dmowski too much cr=
edit
>>>>>> here - it's not like the guy was a big supporter of Ukrainian indepe=
ndence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the
>>>>>> integration with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the
>>>>>> Jasienica view I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away =
from
>>>>>> Western Europe. But Pilsudski came 500+ years after Grunwald and he =
had to
>>>>>> deal with the reality he inherited - it was as unrealistic to try an=
d turn
>>>>>> back the clock at that point as it was to try to form a "Poland for =
Poles".
>>>>>> All things considered I think that inegrationist/multicultural progr=
am was
>>>>>> the most realistic of all available options.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Radek
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, to me personally Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish
>>>>>>> thought and all of ills that Kresy brough(I for example believe tha=
t the
>>>>>>> fall of Poland started with integration with Lithuania, bringing Li=
thuanian
>>>>>>> magnats into power, and the economic system of feudal plantations o=
f
>>>>>>> Ukrainians as base of Polish economy). Would much prefer a scenario=
 after
>>>>>>> WW1 where in which Poland is smaller but more western oriented with=
 ethnic
>>>>>>> Polish territories in Silesia, Warmia, and Dmowski helped the White=
 Russians
>>>>>>> win, which resulted in Central European alliance of slavic countrie=
s under
>>>>>>> aegis of Federated Russian Republic. But that is Alternate History
>>>>>>> alltogether :D Still I respect you as a person and your views. I ju=
st don't
>>>>>>> think they are correct. I read the diaries or opinions of Poles fro=
m early
>>>>>>> XX century and they would not allow for any coexistance with Ukrain=
ian or
>>>>>>> Belarussian minorites.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com> napisa=B3:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I know some crazy people too.
>>>>>>>> Heh, it sounds like you really took your Jasienica (who of course
>>>>>>>> was part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart. I dunno, it's just a=
 big "What
>>>>>>>> If" - interesting to muse about but just not applicable to analyzi=
ng history
>>>>>>>> as she really happened. My big "what if" is what if the interwar P=
ilsudski
>>>>>>>> Poland could have transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic, t=
olerant
>>>>>>>> state like the US that knew how to gain from its inherent multicul=
turalism
>>>>>>>> rather than letting itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalries =
which only
>>>>>>>> benefited its enemies/neighbors. I'm pretty aware that I'm only "P=
olish" by
>>>>>>>> a few accidents of history. This is also why I'm not a big fan of =
the
>>>>>>>> Endecja derived movements of today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Radek
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Really I know quite a few people who would or do.
>>>>>>>>> As to Przemysl it was originally part of Ukrainian state and
>>>>>>>>> unfortunetely will remain a sore point in future relations.
>>>>>>>>> I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 would regain
>>>>>>>>> Kr=F3lewiec and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, whil=
e leaving all
>>>>>>>>> conquered Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not perfect.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2009/8/22 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Nobody serious in Poland demands former Polish territories calle=
d
>>>>>>>>>> Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there ar=
e Ukrainian
>>>>>>>>>> organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hop=
e you know
>>>>>>>>>> about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Pola=
nd.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulatio=
n
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 5:12 PM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in
>>>>>>>>>> Ukraine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by
>>>>>>>>>> rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories onc=
e taken over
>>>>>>>>>> by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from ha=
te speech of
>>>>>>>>>> certain kresowiacy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainia=
n
>>>>>>>>>>> policitians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russi=
ans, by
>>>>>>>>>>> erecting monuments to and praising people whom the Poles regard=
 as
>>>>>>>>>>> murderers. Am I right or not?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BTW do you know who is main ally of a German pro-Nazi National
>>>>>>>>>>> Democratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html and here
>>>>>>>>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --- On *Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://u=
s.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> >* wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulati=
on
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.m=
c328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion
>>>>>>>>>>> that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwitting=
ly) and even
>>>>>>>>>>> a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszk=
o himself was
>>>>>>>>>>> a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has a=
lso written
>>>>>>>>>>> on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that
>>>>>>>>>>> kresowiacy work for the benefit or Russia and that society has =
never been
>>>>>>>>>>> screened well for Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin's puppe=
ts like the
>>>>>>>>>>> seperatists from Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters o=
f support to
>>>>>>>>>>> kresowiacy.
>>>>>>>>>>> You know the saying "*You Will Know Them* By Their *Fruits*"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=BFytkownik radek szulga <
>>>>>>>>>>> rsszulga@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
=3Drsszulga@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> > napisa=B3:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittin=
gly) and even
>>>>>>>>>>>> a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiasz=
ko himself was
>>>>>>>>>>>> a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has =
also written
>>>>>>>>>>>> on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration
>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest =
when lots of
>>>>>>>>>>>> AK units "revealed" themselves to the Soviets as part of the w=
hole "ally of
>>>>>>>>>>>> our allies" world view (this is why NSZ, even though they play=
ed a far more
>>>>>>>>>>>> minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role =
in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting with the communists after the war). But I think you'r=
e jumping to
>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusions here, before the actual research can come out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Radek
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.ma=
il.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I =
mean, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders=
"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> researched. The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. Howeve=
r known
>>>>>>>>>>>>> research indicates that this was very extensive and widesprea=
d.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can look for more detailed data later but for now:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *W swojej ksi=B1=BFce "Miecz i tarcza komunizmu" pisze pan, =
=BFe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=
=B3a to silna
>>>>>>>>>>>>> infiltracja?*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=
=EApu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To ni=
e jest tylko problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur pols=
kiego pa=F1stwa
>>>>>>>>>>>>> podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunisty=
cznych, gdzie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=
=EAcie o rozmiarach tej
>>>>>>>>>>>>> akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=BF=
e ich skuteczno=B6=E6,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To, =BFe polska bezpieka i NKW=
D stosunkowo =B3atwo
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "oczy=B6ci=B3y" teren Polski z ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiad=
omo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> w jaki=B6 op=F3r, to =B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania b=
y=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=B1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> skal=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6 skuteczne. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly=
-czlowiek.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Machcewicz =B6wietnie pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne
>>>>>>>>>>>>> podzia=B3y sceny politycznej dezorganizowa=B3y funkcjonowanie=
 podziemia, jak
>>>>>>>>>>>>> przebiega=B3a infiltracja =B6rodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiec=
ki wywiad, a z
>>>>>>>>>>>>> drugiej strony, na czym polega=B3a zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdz=
y obozem
>>>>>>>>>>>>> demokrat=F3w, sanacj=B1 i narodowcami - rywalizacja, kt=F3ra =
prowadzi=B3a do zbrodni
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i samos=B1d=F3w.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_his=
torie_polski_od_nowa.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? *
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szereg=
ach
>>>>>>>>>>>>> polskich w=B3adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=
=B3ywy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wykorzystywali to, =BFe AK z czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 m=
ocno w lewo. Polskie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 z=
godnych z niemieckimi
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja=
 "Burza" z
>>>>>>>>>>>>> powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko=
 jedna strona -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 pytanie, czy Stalin m=F3g=B3,=
 a je=BFeli tak, to w
>>>>>>>>>>>>> jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na to, =BFe Warszawa akurat 1 si=
erpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie mog=B3aby si=EA okaza=E6 =
szokuj=B1ca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stup=
id
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volhyn with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And th=
ey did. Which I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of thi=
s stance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  "And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a Pole not a* kresowiak *who is more interested in dream=
s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know =
loooved being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> under Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowi=
ak mindset) in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mudflats of Kresy, rather  about good of Poland. Currently I =
can think of no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles=
 and Polish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> state the *kresowiacy. *The support they receive from Putin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are=
 they working
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for-even if they are as Lenin put it "useful idiots".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to *kresowia=
k
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * if that's what you mean. This group of people wants to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hostage all other Poles just to pursuit their own nationalist=
ic dreams. I do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not play their game. The kresowiaks should understand that th=
e interest of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Polish people and Poland is higher then the dreams of getting=
 even at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ukrainians we once opressed or dreaming about wooden villages=
 in muds and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> swamps of Kresy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  "Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of populat=
ion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany i=
n 1921, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the =
Volhynian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans. They had all th=
e reasons to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of G=
rudziadz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 66% of Torun was German. Nine years later, these cities b=
ecame part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the mino=
rity as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, nobody justifies the Germans."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign o=
ccupation and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no matter how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and =
Vilnius were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not Polish but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Li=
thuania.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endors=
e
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Polish militias.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated th=
at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minute=
s to pack the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD l=
ook any better?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove=
 the Latvians
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported t=
hem to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Siberia?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles i=
n
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328=
.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid o=
f
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Poles, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles i=
n the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interbellum, who wanted to get rid of the Jews. The differen=
ce is that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Polish party or organization even suggested mass murder of J=
ewish minority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Poland. The ideal was to move them somewhere out of the c=
ountry, most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferrably to Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is tha=
t they did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only endorse the killings, but actually organized them, on a=
 large scale.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And no sources inform us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles=
 in advance to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move away. They just came to the villages and began the slau=
ghter without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any warning. Anyway, even if they had warned the Poles, it d=
oes not really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated th=
at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minut=
es to pack the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD =
look any better?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remov=
e the Latvians
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported =
them to Siberia?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder =
of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilians can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killi=
ng Poles, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poles killing Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of t=
he area of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jedwabne had all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very =
actively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cooperated with Soviet regime, and their cooperation resulte=
d in thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Poles deported to Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Nev=
er, under no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of popula=
tion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany =
in 1921, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the=
 Volhynian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans. They had all t=
he reasons to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of =
Grudziadz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 66% of Torun was German. Nine years later, these cities =
became part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the min=
ority as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, nobody justifies the Germans.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the Germans only wanted to remove Poles from what they =
regarded as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> German lands, and they gave a notice before transferring the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilian population to central Poland (General Government)? =
During the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interbellum, the discrimination of German minority of Poland=
 was so severe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that 85% Germans had left Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Y=
et, no German
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uses this as a justification for the events of WW2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excu=
ses for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jedwabne, Pawlokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in=
 Ostrow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wielkopolski in 1919. Attacking and murdering of civilian po=
pulation can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never be excused. And those who try to do so are accomplices=
 in crime.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tymek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/co=
mpose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
pose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net>
>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ugh, can&#39;t let this go while we&#39;re on the subject. But the subject =
is Ukraine and it&#39;s worth keeping in mind that the Ukrainians weren&#39=
;t exactly big fans of Denikin either, and his belated recognition of Polan=
d came basically at a time when anyone with an ounce of sense knew he was l=
ost. Denikin, whatever his other merits, was very much fighting for the Rus=
sian Empire as she existed in, oh, I dunno, 1850. Both in terms of the ques=
tion of non-Russians and the social situation (and one doesn&#39;t have to =
be a commie to realize that the great masses of people were being seriously=
 screwed over). Wrangel was smarter and better but he was also fighting fro=
m a corner. His genius lay in the fact that he managed to make the anti-Bol=
shevik forces last that long, despite the odds - but w/o outside support, s=
pecifically w/o help from Poland he didn&#39;t have a chance. He dealt with=
 the issue of Polish independence and also Ukrainian independence by basica=
lly stating that he was open to considering the possibility (unlike Denikin=
 who for 99% of time said he was just plain ol&#39; refused it) - but only =
once the Bolsheviks were defeated. Understandably, both the Poles and the U=
krainians - and let&#39;s not forget that a lot of Ukrainians fought agains=
t Wrangel as much as they fought against Trotsky and Pilsudski (not even br=
inging fringe people like Makhno into it) - didn&#39;t see that as a straig=
ht up offer.<br>
This is part of what lost the WR the war - their refusal to recognize the b=
asic facts on the ground and the indepenence movements, both Polish and Ukr=
ainian, that in a lot of ways could&#39;ve been their natural allies. From =
Poland&#39;s point of view a buffer state of an independent Ukraine would&#=
39;ve been quite an advantage 10 years later - and the fact that Dmowski en=
gineered the screwing over of Petliura (for what reason exactly? purely per=
sonal political gain?) is on him.<br>
<br>Radek<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px so=
lid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Sure, If you have the time to print out here is a nice article from Andrzej=
 Nowak that was published in Arcana touching upon the subject:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.tylkoprawda.akcja.pl/ojm063.html" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.tylkoprawda.akcja.pl/ojm063.html</a><br>
<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 03:05 u=BFytkown=
ik radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<div><div></=
div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I&#39;d love to continue this conversation. But it&#39;s time to go since t=
he train is early in the morning. Next time.<div><div></div><div><br><br>Ra=
dek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>&quot;I thin=
k you got it backwards - it&#39;s Denikin and then Wrangel who
refused to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more
ambigous on the subject matter).&quot;<br></div>Actually Denikin agreed at =
last to Polish state-but with the border on Bug, which Pilsudski refused an=
d allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies.<br>As to Kresy ? The Kresy =
were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they offered no resources, no i=
nfrastructure, no transportation, no Polish majority almost anywhere, no ed=
ucation, but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, hostile population and const=
ant conflict with Russia. Poland had developed agriculture already in Wielk=
opolska and Mazowsze, it didn&#39;t need any anymore at that price. Besides=
-they required constant police supervision, where the breeding ground of re=
sistance against Poland, drained money that was needed elswhere. Poland cou=
ld not build its position on agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build=
 its army and modern transporation.<br>



You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:<br><a href=3D"http://www.ma=
proom.org/00/31/index.php" target=3D"_blank">http://www.maproom.org/00/31/i=
ndex.php</a><br><br>They show how big wasteland the Kresy were.&nbsp; It ma=
kes me cry that Poles lost so much fighting for such worthless territories,=
 obsessed by their nationalism.<br>



<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=BFytkown=
ik radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204=
); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">



I think you got it backwards - it&#39;s Denikin and then Wrangel who refuse=
d to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the =
subject matter). The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Curzon =
line vs. Silesia) could actually have been made. Pilsudski was understandab=
ly afraid that compromising on either would mean a loss of both. I think he=
 was right in that regard.elo<div>


<div></div><div><br>

<br>From a purely economic point of view I&#39;m not so sure that the coal =
of Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and especially=
 commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry, coal, s=
teel and all that. But that&#39;s only because Britain, which was the first=
 to industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on services. B=
elgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricultural pro=
ducts. France&#39;s &quot;industrialization&quot; (a misnomer) was in good =
part agriculture driven. So I don&#39;t think that getting the mineral rich=
 Silesia instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something worth fight=
ing for -&nbsp; on economic grounds.<div>



<div></div><div><br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
olobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">




I don&#39;t have illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative&nbsp; an=
d more part of Entente would not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-w=
hich is an accusation oft given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperat=
ion and military thrust when WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a=
 stronger Russia would be needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW =
with Germany. A Poland largely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be =
a richer, safer and better Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federate a=
nyway. And of course what is usually forgotten is that Endeks as supporters=
 of neoslavism were more supportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. But as=
 you know it&#39;s AH today.<br>





<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=BFytkownik r=
adek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<div><div></div>=
<div>
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
It&#39;s certainly possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was t=
oo little too late - still, I think he had the right idea though possibly a=
t the wrong time. His ideas though should&#39;ve been given a chance and no=
t have been torpodoed by Dmowski&#39;s people who were motivated much more =
by &quot;racism&quot; (if that&#39;s an appropriate term here) which eventu=
ally resulted in the pacifications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any ki=
nd of clearly defined national interest.  I think you&#39;re giving Dmowski=
 too much credit here - it&#39;s not like the guy was a big supporter of Uk=
rainian independence.<br>






<br>But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the integ=
ration with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the Jasienica v=
iew I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away from Western Europ=
e. But Pilsudski came 500+ years after Grunwald and he had to deal with the=
 reality he inherited - it was as unrealistic to try and turn back the cloc=
k at that point as it was to try to form a &quot;Poland for Poles&quot;. Al=
l things considered I think that inegrationist/multicultural program was th=
e most realistic of all available options.<div>





<div></div><div><br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
olobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">






Oh, to me personally Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish thought and=
 all of ills that Kresy brough(I for example believe that the fall of Polan=
d started with integration with Lithuania, bringing Lithuanian magnats into=
 power, and the economic system of feudal plantations of Ukrainians as base=
 of Polish economy). Would much prefer a scenario after WW1 where in which =
Poland is smaller but more western oriented with ethnic Polish territories =
in Silesia, Warmia, and Dmowski helped the White Russians win, which result=
ed in Central European alliance of slavic countries under aegis of Federate=
d Russian Republic. But that is Alternate History alltogether :D Still I re=
spect you as a person and your views. I just don&#39;t think they are corre=
ct. I read the diaries or opinions of Poles from early XX century and they =
would not allow for any coexistance with Ukrainian or Belarussian minorites=
.<br>







<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=BFytkownik r=
adek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<div><div></div>=
<div>
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Well, I know some crazy people too.<br>Heh, it sounds like you really took =
your Jasienica (who of course was part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart.=
 I dunno, it&#39;s just a big &quot;What If&quot; - interesting to muse abo=
ut but just not applicable to analyzing history as she really happened. My =
big &quot;what if&quot; is what if the interwar Pilsudski Poland could have=
 transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic, tolerant state like the US =
that knew how to gain from its inherent multiculturalism rather than lettin=
g itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalries which only benefited its en=
emies/neighbors. I&#39;m pretty aware that I&#39;m only &quot;Polish&quot; =
by a few accidents of history. This is also why I&#39;m not a big fan of th=
e Endecja derived movements of today.<div>







<div></div><div><br>
<br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
olobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">








Really I know quite a few people who would or do.<br>As to Przemysl it was =
originally part of Ukrainian state and unfortunetely will remain a sore poi=
nt in future relations.<br>I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 =
would regain Kr=F3lewiec and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, w=
hile leaving all conquered Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not pe=
rfect.<br>









<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/22 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yah=
oo.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div><div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0p=
t 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">









<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">









<div>Nobody serious&nbsp;in Poland demands former Polish territories called=
 Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there are Ukrainia=
n organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hope you kno=
w about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Poland.</div>









<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b=
> wrote:<br></div>
</div><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding=
-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><div><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<br>To: &q=
uot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br></div>Date: Friday,=
 August 21, 2009, 5:12 PM<div>









<div></div><div><br><br>
<div>There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in Ukrai=
ne.<br><br>As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by=
 rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once taken ov=
er by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hate speec=
h of certain kresowiacy.<br>









<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian policit=
ians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russians, by erecting mo=
numents to and praising&nbsp;people whom the Poles regard as murderers. Am =
I right or not?</div>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>BTW do you know who is main ally of a&nbsp;German pro-Nazi National De=
mocratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here <a href=3D"http://www.natvan.com/=
national-vanguard/117/ndp.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html</a>&nbsp;and here <a href=3D"h=
ttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg" rel=3D"nofollow" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg</a>=
</div>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nof=
ollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.m=
c328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<div><br>Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<=
br>To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=
=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>









</div>Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>&quot;It&#39;s a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusi=
on that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and e=
ven a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himsel=
f was a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also wr=
itten on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.<br>









<br>That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that kresowiacy w=
ork for the benefit or Russia and that society has never been screened well=
 for Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin&#39;s puppets like the seperatis=
ts from Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters of support to kresowia=
cy. <br>









You know the saying &quot;<i>You Will Know Them</i> By Their <i>Fruits</i>&=
quot;<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=BFytkownik radek=
 szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">rsszulg=
a@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> napisa=B3:<br>










<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">It&#39;s a quite =
long jump from what you present to the conclusion that the Volhunian AK was=
 acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger jump to the imp=
lication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet agent - parti=
cularly since at least his daughter has also written on NKVD and communist =
crimes in Volhynia.<br>









<br>As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn&#39;t =
be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of AK units =
&quot;revealed&quot; themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole &quot;a=
lly of our allies&quot; world view (this is why NSZ, even though they playe=
d a far more minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role =
in the fighting with the communists after the war). But I think you&#39;re =
jumping to conclusions here, before the actual research can come
 out.<br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc3=
28.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>&quot;Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that =
the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it&#39;s poss=
ible but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders&quot;<br></div>










<div>
<div></div>
<div>The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. =
The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates=
 that this was very extensive and widespread.<br>I can look for more detail=
ed data later but for now:<br>









<br><a href=3D"http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405" r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print=
.aspx?id=3D68405</a><br><br>
<div><i><b>W swojej ksi=B1=BFce &bdquo;Miecz i tarcza komunizmu&rdquo; pisz=
e pan, =BFe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=
=B3a to silna infiltracja?</b></i></div>
<div><i>Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=EApu d=
o sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie jest tylko pr=
oblem sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polskiego pa=
=F1stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunistycznych=
, gdzie podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=EAcie =
o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=
=BFe ich skuteczno=B6=E6, zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To, =BFe polska be=
zpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =B3atwo &bdquo;oczy=B6ci=B3y&rdquo; teren Polski z=
 ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiadomo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA w jaki=B6 op=
=F3r, to =B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=
=B1 skal=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6 skuteczne. </i></div>









<br><a href=3D"http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykl=
y-czlowiek.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.redakcja.pl/=
Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html</a><br><i>Machcewicz =
=B6wietnie
 pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne podzia=B3y sceny politycznej dezorgan=
izowa=B3y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=B3a infiltracja =B6rodowi=
sk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej strony, na czym polega=B3a=
 zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy obozem demokrat=F3w, sanacj=B1 i narodowcami &=
ndash; rywalizacja, kt=F3ra prowadzi=B3a do zbrodni i samos=B1d=F3w.<br>









</i><a href=3D"http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_hi=
storie_polski_od_nowa.htm" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ni=
niwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm</a=
><br>










<div><i><font face=3D"Arial"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family=
: Arial;">A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? </span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></font></i>=
</div>









<i><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><font face=3D"Arial=
">Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich =
w=B3adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=B3ywy. Wykorzystywali =
to, =BFe AK z czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemi=
e ostatecznie nie podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zgodnych z niemieckimi =
interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja &quot;Burza&q=
uot; z powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko jedna =
strona - Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 pytanie, czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, a je=
=BFeli tak, to w jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na to, =BFe Warszawa akurat 1=
 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie mog=B3a=
by si=EA okaza=E6 szokuj=B1ca.
 </font></span></i><br>
<div><br><br>&quot;They just urged people to leave their houses, and these =
stupid Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault.&quot;<b=
r></div>Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn=
 with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don&=
#39;t even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance. <br>










<div><br>&nbsp;&quot;And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole&quot; </di=
v>
<div>I am a Pole not a<i> kresowiak </i>who is more interested in dreams of=
 owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being un=
der Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in m=
udflats of Kresy, rather&nbsp; about good of Poland. Currently I can think =
of no other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Pol=
ish state the <i>kresowiacy. </i>The support they receive from Putin and th=
e amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they working for-ev=
en if they are as Lenin put it &quot;useful idiots&quot;.<br>









So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to <i>kresowiak</i> if tha=
t&#39;s what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other=
 Poles just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their =
game. The kresowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people a=
nd Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once o=
pressed or dreaming
 about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.<br></div><br>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<div>&quot;Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the =
Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; K=
atowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;an=
d still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Sl=
aughter, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons t=
o be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz,=
 and&nbsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities=
 became part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the mi=
nority as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.&quot;<br>









<br></div>Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to =
which Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no =
matter how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not =
Polish but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.<br>









<br><br></div>
<div>&quot;With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse th=
e killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale&quot;<br></div>Li=
kewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.=
=20
<div><br><br>&quot;What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian state=
d that the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pa=
ck the stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any=
 better? Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the =
Latvians from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them t=
o Siberia?&quot;<br>









<br></div>Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in Vo=
lhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.<br><br><br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.<=
/div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </div=
>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</di=
v>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </div>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the Nazi s=
laughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowic=
e and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and stil=
l these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughte=
r, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be b=
itter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&n=
bsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities becam=
e part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority=
 as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</div>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</div>










<div><br>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</div>










<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br></div></div>
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o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikip=
edometer.net</a><br>









<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" rel=3D"=
nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listin=
fo/folks</a><br></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br>=
_______________________________________________<br>









Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br><a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"=
_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/=
cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>









<br></blockquote></div><br></div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br=
><br>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>Wikipedia statistic=
s discussion list<br><a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><=
br>









<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>=
</div></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>

      <br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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Wikipedia statistics discussion list
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