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Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:29:29 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  The core point is that Polish research on German
	atrocities in WW2 is almost completely based within 1945-1989. After
	1989 historians exclusively focused on Communist crimes and
	atrocities(I
	do have source on that). In the below case the situation is a bit
	easier
	since the author in question is cited by modern sources as the most
	authorative scholar in this topics and his study is well praised. I
	haven't yet given this information on Wiki. As to the person below he
	is
	much like mirror-version of Irpen, this time though for Nazi's and
	Germans. Users interested in his methods can see for comparision how he
	tried to enter Nazi era publication as reliable source(this serves to
	point out difference between his use of Nazi and post 1945 sources)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_17#Nazi_Publication_as_source_of_information_regarding_Polish_German_history__.3f
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Subject: Re: [WPM] I am defending communist era sources
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	Content preview:  The core point is that Polish research on German
	atrocities in WW2 is almost completely based within 1945-1989. After
	1989 historians exclusively focused on Communist crimes and atrocities(I
	do have source on that). In the below case the situation is a bit easier
	since the author in question is cited by modern sources as the most
	authorative scholar in this topics and his study is well praised. I
	haven't yet given this information on Wiki. As to the person below he is
	much like mirror-version of Irpen, this time though for Nazi's and
	Germans. Users interested in his methods can see for comparision how he
	tried to enter Nazi era publication as reliable source(this serves to
	point out difference between his use of Nazi and post 1945 sources)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_17#Nazi_Publication_as_source_of_information_regarding_Polish_German_history__.3f
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The core point is that Polish research on German atrocities in WW2 is almost
completely based within 1945-1989. After 1989 historians exclusively focused
on Communist  crimes and atrocities(I do have source on that). In the below
case the situation is a bit easier since the author in question is cited by
modern sources as the most authorative scholar in this topics and his study
is well praised. I haven't yet given this information on Wiki.  As to the
person below he is much like mirror-version of Irpen, this time though for
Nazi's and Germans. Users interested in his methods can see for comparision
how he tried to enter Nazi era publication as reliable source(this serves to
point out difference between his use of Nazi and post 1945 sources)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_17#Nazi_Publication_as_source_of_information_regarding_Polish_German_history__.3f

In regards to the template its  overblown. Much as I dislike Peoples
Republic of Poland, its really is absurd to name it a totalitarian communist
regime in 1987. The template is more fitting to sources from Stalinist
period in SU or North Korean sources.

2009/5/17 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>

> Amusingly, I find myself defending the communist era sources; my
> opponent is so desperate that he has even created this nice template:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Communist_era_sources
>
> Am I the KGB plant? :)
>
> Seriously, the story is as follows:
> I and Molobo (well, mostly Molobo) have expanded
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany
> article. As you may know, Molobo likes to stress the issue of Polish
> suffering and has created/added to many articles on this subject
> (whether all of his additions to this article are appropriate is another
> issue I've raised on talk of that article). Anyway, what it all boils
> down to is the simple fact that a lot of Polish sources date to
> communist era - and our Nazi... I mean, German whitewashing... I mean,
> neutral editors interested in portraying the human side of Germany
> during WWII (sic!) are trying their best to remove all of those sources.
>
> There is a thread at RSN:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_sources_published_in_Communist_Poland
> and at article's talk
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Sources_published_during_the_Communist_era
> As far as I can tell, consensus is that those sources are sometimes
> acceptable, but the creation of
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Communist_era_sources
> may really stir the matters up: this template can be a useful tool or a
> dangerous one. I think it may be a good opportunity to add some general
> anti-totalitarian era sources notes to WP:RS, but on the other hand, we
> have to keep in mind a lot of those sources that didn't deal with the
> issues of party line/marxism/propaganda/state secrets were rather
> reliable (I'd still like to see the "Soviet historiography" article
> expanded to discuss which parts of Soviet h. were/are respected and
> reliable...
>
> Anyway, I'd recommend looking at the above links and joining/starting
> discussions. And something needs to be done with that template... it may
> be amusing to steer our Russian cabal towards it and let them have it
> out with the Nazi one over it, and just watch the sparks fly from the
> distance :D
>
> --
> Prokonsul Piotrus aka Piotr Konieczny       |||____  __ __
>                                       I=I====__|_|I__I=>
> "Lennier, get us the hell out of here."     |||
> "Initiating 'getting the hell out of here' maneuver."
>  -- Ivanova and Lennier in Babylon 5:"The Hour of the Wolf"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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The core point is that Polish research on German atrocities in WW2 is almos=
t completely based within 1945-1989. After 1989 historians exclusively focu=
sed on Communist=A0 crimes and atrocities(I do have source on that). In the=
 below case the situation is a bit easier since the author in question is c=
ited by modern sources as the most authorative scholar in this topics and h=
is study is well praised. I haven&#39;t yet given this information on Wiki.=
=A0 As to the person below he is much like mirror-version of Irpen, this ti=
me though for Nazi&#39;s and Germans. Users interested in his methods can s=
ee for comparision how he tried to enter Nazi era publication as reliable s=
ource(this serves to point out difference between his use of Nazi and post =
1945 sources)<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticebo=
ard/Archive_17#Nazi_Publication_as_source_of_information_regarding_Polish_G=
erman_history__.3f">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources=
/Noticeboard/Archive_17#Nazi_Publication_as_source_of_information_regarding=
_Polish_German_history__.3f</a><br>
<br>In regards to the template its=A0 overblown. Much as I dislike Peoples =
Republic of Poland, its really is absurd to name it a totalitarian communis=
t regime in 1987. The template is more fitting to sources from Stalinist pe=
riod in SU or North Korean sources.<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/5/17 Piotr Konieczny <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
Amusingly, I find myself defending the communist era sources; my<br>
opponent is so desperate that he has even created this nice template:<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Communist_era_sources" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Communist_era_sources<=
/a><br>
<br>
Am I the KGB plant? :)<br>
<br>
Seriously, the story is as follows:<br>
I and Molobo (well, mostly Molobo) have expanded<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_German=
y" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_N=
azi_Germany</a><br>
article. As you may know, Molobo likes to stress the issue of Polish<br>
suffering and has created/added to many articles on this subject<br>
(whether all of his additions to this article are appropriate is another<br=
>
issue I&#39;ve raised on talk of that article). Anyway, what it all boils<b=
r>
down to is the simple fact that a lot of Polish sources date to<br>
communist era - and our Nazi... I mean, German whitewashing... I mean,<br>
neutral editors interested in portraying the human side of Germany<br>
during WWII (sic!) are trying their best to remove all of those sources.<br=
>
<br>
There is a thread at RSN:<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticebo=
ard#Reliability_of_sources_published_in_Communist_Poland" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliab=
ility_of_sources_published_in_Communist_Poland</a><br>

and at article&#39;s talk<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_G=
ermany#Sources_published_during_the_Communist_era" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Sources_pu=
blished_during_the_Communist_era</a><br>

As far as I can tell, consensus is that those sources are sometimes<br>
acceptable, but the creation of<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Communist_era_sources" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Communist_era_sources<=
/a><br>
may really stir the matters up: this template can be a useful tool or a<br>
dangerous one. I think it may be a good opportunity to add some general<br>
anti-totalitarian era sources notes to WP:RS, but on the other hand, we<br>
have to keep in mind a lot of those sources that didn&#39;t deal with the<b=
r>
issues of party line/marxism/propaganda/state secrets were rather<br>
reliable (I&#39;d still like to see the &quot;Soviet historiography&quot; a=
rticle<br>
expanded to discuss which parts of Soviet h. were/are respected and<br>
reliable...<br>
<br>
Anyway, I&#39;d recommend looking at the above links and joining/starting<b=
r>
discussions. And something needs to be done with that template... it may<br=
>
be amusing to steer our Russian cabal towards it and let them have it<br>
out with the Nazi one over it, and just watch the sparks fly from the<br>
distance :D<br>
<br>
--<br>
Prokonsul Piotrus aka Piotr Konieczny =A0 =A0 =A0 |||____ =A0__ __<br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 I=3DI=3D=3D=3D=3D__|_|I__I=3D&gt;<br>
&quot;Lennier, get us the hell out of here.&quot; =A0 =A0 |||<br>
&quot;Initiating &#39;getting the hell out of here&#39; maneuver.&quot;<br>
 =A0-- Ivanova and Lennier in Babylon 5:&quot;The Hour of the Wolf&quot;<br=
>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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