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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:14:37 +1000
Message-ID: <4f045a880904272214n1e851002v67f3b5063d94b95b@mail.gmail.com>
From: Martin <martint20@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Digwuren
	<digwuren@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 00:10, Andrei
	Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Yes, sure, please speak
	freely about everything. It is also fine to think >> that I am slightly
	paranoid (and perhaps I am). > > They say that paranoia is the
	occupation hazard for computer geeks :-) > I trust we all have heard of
	ECHELON. Considering the distances our letters > travel in plaintext,
	throughout the world, it seems reasonable to assess > that ECHELON, or a
	similar system, could allow a foreign government readily > to capture
	our letters while in transit. > I do not think Russia has the technical
	capacity to work out its own > analogue, although its SIGINT capture
	capability has significantly improved > since 1990. (For just one
	example, Russia now employs satellite > communications eavesdropping
	stations.) However, with some paranoia, it > would be possible to
	postulate that the Chinese cybermilitary might have > compromised
	ECHELON control network, thereby acquiring access to a massive > amount
	of network traffic, and might after some sifting pass some of this >
	captured traffic on to Russian three-letter organisations. > None of
	this would, at the current evidence levels, pass Occam's, however. >> >>
	"Public internet sites" - I mean wikipedia. > > I suspect that a lot of
	what Kremlin is doing in Russian Internet is not > tightly controlled by
	the top brass, but is instead run by a hierarchy of > semi-independent,
	structurally docile "volunteers". Their motivation to > coöperate would
	be psychological and social, but massive surveillance done > this way
	requires large numbers of people who submit to Russian authorities. > In
	the Russian Wikipedia, the source of such people is obvious. In >
	commentaria of various web news sources -- such as BBC --, it's
	reasonably > easy to see where these people come from. But in English
	Wikipedia, there's > by far not enough of such people. There was but one
	Ghirlandajo. > Evidence? Not much. Just that a [...] 
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	Content preview:  On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Digwuren
	<digwuren@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 00:10, Andrei
	Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Yes, sure, please speak
	freely about everything. It is also fine to think >> that I am slightly
	paranoid (and perhaps I am). > > They say that paranoia is the
	occupation hazard for computer geeks :-) > I trust we all have heard of
	ECHELON. Considering the distances our letters > travel in plaintext,
	throughout the world, it seems reasonable to assess > that ECHELON, or a
	similar system, could allow a foreign government readily > to capture
	our letters while in transit. > I do not think Russia has the technical
	capacity to work out its own > analogue, although its SIGINT capture
	capability has significantly improved > since 1990. (For just one
	example, Russia now employs satellite > communications eavesdropping
	stations.) However, with some paranoia, it > would be possible to
	postulate that the Chinese cybermilitary might have > compromised
	ECHELON control network, thereby acquiring access to a massive > amount
	of network traffic, and might after some sifting pass some of this >
	captured traffic on to Russian three-letter organisations. > None of
	this would, at the current evidence levels, pass Occam's, however. >> >>
	"Public internet sites" - I mean wikipedia. > > I suspect that a lot of
	what Kremlin is doing in Russian Internet is not > tightly controlled by
	the top brass, but is instead run by a hierarchy of > semi-independent,
	structurally docile "volunteers". Their motivation to > coöperate would
	be psychological and social, but massive surveillance done > this way
	requires large numbers of people who submit to Russian authorities. > In
	the Russian Wikipedia, the source of such people is obvious. In >
	commentaria of various web news sources -- such as BBC --, it's
	reasonably > easy to see where these people come from. But in English
	Wikipedia, there's > by far not enough of such people. There was but one
	Ghirlandajo. > Evidence? Not much. Just that a [...] 
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On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 00:10, Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>
>> Yes, sure, please speak freely about everything. It is also fine to think
>> that I am slightly paranoid (and perhaps I am).
>
> They say that paranoia is the occupation hazard for computer geeks :-)
> I trust we all have heard of ECHELON.  Considering the distances our lett=
ers
> travel in plaintext, throughout the world, it seems reasonable to assess
> that ECHELON, or a similar system, could allow a foreign government readi=
ly
> to capture our letters while in transit.
> I do not think Russia has the technical capacity to work out its own
> analogue, although its SIGINT capture capability has significantly improv=
ed
> since 1990.  (For just one example, Russia now employs satellite
> communications eavesdropping stations.)  However, with some paranoia, it
> would be possible to postulate that the Chinese cybermilitary might have
> compromised ECHELON control network, thereby acquiring access to a massive
> amount of network traffic, and might after some sifting pass some of this
> captured traffic on to Russian three-letter organisations.
> None of this would, at the current evidence levels, pass Occam's, however.
>>
>> "Public internet sites"  - I mean wikipedia.
>
> I suspect that a lot of what Kremlin is doing in Russian Internet is not
> tightly controlled by the top brass, but is instead run by a hierarchy of
> semi-independent, structurally docile "volunteers".  Their motivation to
> co=F6perate would be psychological and social, but massive  surveillance =
done
> this way requires large numbers of people who submit to Russian authoriti=
es.
>  In the Russian Wikipedia, the source of such people is obvious.  In
> commentaria of various web news sources -- such as BBC --, it's reasonably
> easy to see where these people come from.  But in English Wikipedia, ther=
e's
> by far not enough of such people.  There was but one Ghirlandajo.
> Evidence?  Not much.  Just that a Russia's Internet operations are so
> massive that it would require many thousands of people to administrate th=
em
> in a micromanaging way, and there does not seem to be evidence of an army=
 of
> Internet micromanagement infrastructure in Russia.  However, this kind of
> infrastructure could theoretically be "hidden" in a number of ways.

It is more likely Nashi activists and their ilk that would do the ground wo=
rk.

In regard to ECHELON, I think it is a given fact that email traffic is
monitored. Some 90% of the world's internet traffic gets routed
through the USA. The fact I am on this mail list, all messages would
be routed via the USA to reach me here in Australia.

Martin

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