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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:34:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Molobo, andÂ how would you imagine Warmia and Mazury
	being part of Poland after WW1? Against the wishes of 97% of its
	population? How would you imagine annexation of Opole, against the
	wishes of 95% of its population? Â I too think that Poland made a major
	mistake, and wasted its resources on senseless wars with Russia and
	Turkey, plus Cossack uprisings, and plus union with Lithuania, which
	brought us nothing good. I too think that our kings neglected Silesia
	and Pomerania, but we cannot change history. And the history is that
	Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in 1939, while Lwow and
	Wilno were predominantly Polish cities. Â Of course annexation of
	Volhynia in 1921 was a very stupid idea, of course Pilsudski cared too
	much about east, and too little about west. But you cannot change the
	fact that in the area of Tarnopol, Poles made some 40 - 45% of
	population, in the are of Grodno - 60%, while in Gdansk/Danzig Poles
	made only some 5%. Â It is blind stubborness of Polish elite in the
	1930s that was one of the reasons of WW2, and we have to admit it. After
	construction of Gdynia, Poland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all
	about "honor" as Jozef Beck said. We should have allowed Gdansk to
	become part of Germany, as the city's population wished, and then wait
	how the events would turn out. Â Â Tymek [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  Molobo, andÂ how would you imagine Warmia and Mazury
	being part of Poland after WW1? Against the wishes of 97% of its
	population? How would you imagine annexation of Opole, against the
	wishes of 95% of its population? Â I too think that Poland made a major
	mistake, and wasted its resources on senseless wars with Russia and
	Turkey, plus Cossack uprisings, and plus union with Lithuania, which
	brought us nothing good. I too think that our kings neglected Silesia
	and Pomerania, but we cannot change history. And the history is that
	Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in 1939, while Lwow and
	Wilno were predominantly Polish cities. Â Of course annexation of
	Volhynia in 1921 was a very stupid idea, of course Pilsudski cared too
	much about east, and too little about west. But you cannot change the
	fact that in the area of Tarnopol, Poles made some 40 - 45% of
	population, in the are of Grodno - 60%, while in Gdansk/Danzig Poles
	made only some 5%. Â It is blind stubborness of Polish elite in the
	1930s that was one of the reasons of WW2, and we have to admit it. After
	construction of Gdynia, Poland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all
	about "honor" as Jozef Beck said. We should have allowed Gdansk to
	become part of Germany, as the city's population wished, and then wait
	how the events would turn out. Â Â Tymek [...] 
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Molobo, and=C2=A0how would you imagine Warmia and Mazury being part of Pola=
nd after WW1? Against the wishes of 97% of its population? How would you im=
agine annexation of Opole, against the wishes of 95% of its population?
=C2=A0
I too think that Poland made a major mistake, and wasted its resources on s=
enseless wars with Russia and Turkey, plus Cossack uprisings, and plus unio=
n with Lithuania, which brought us nothing good. I too think that our kings=
 neglected Silesia and Pomerania, but we cannot change history. And the his=
tory is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in 1939, while =
Lwow and Wilno were predominantly Polish cities.
=C2=A0
Of course annexation of Volhynia in 1921 was a very stupid idea, of course =
Pilsudski cared too much about east, and too little about west. But you can=
not change the fact that in the area of Tarnopol, Poles made some 40 - 45% =
of population, in the are of Grodno - 60%, while in Gdansk/Danzig Poles mad=
e only some 5%.=20
=C2=A0
It is blind stubborness of Polish elite in the 1930s that was one of the re=
asons of WW2, and we have to admit it. After construction of Gdynia, Poland=
 did not need Gdansk any more. It was all about "honor" as Jozef Beck said.=
 We should have allowed Gdansk to become part of Germany, as the city's pop=
ulation wished, and then wait how the events would turn out.=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Tymek

--- On Fri, 8/21/09, radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com> wrote:


From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 8:05 PM


I'd love to continue this conversation. But it's time to go since the train=
 is early in the morning. Next time.

Radek



2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>


"I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refused t=
o cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the sub=
ject matter)."
Actually Denikin agreed at last to Polish state-but with the border on Bug,=
 which Pilsudski refused and allowed Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies.
As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a dump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they of=
fered no resources, no infrastructure, no transportation, no Polish majorit=
y almost anywhere, no education, but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, host=
ile population and constant conflict with Russia. Poland had developed agri=
culture already in Wielkopolska and Mazowsze, it didn't need any anymore at=
 that price. Besides-they required constant police supervision, where the b=
reeding ground of resistance against Poland, drained money that was needed =
elswhere. Poland could not build its position on agriculture anyway-it need=
ed industry to build its army and modern transporation.
You are welcomed to see the maps made by Romer:
http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php

They show how big wasteland the Kresy were.=C2=A0 It makes me cry that Pole=
s lost so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their n=
ationalism.



W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com> napisa=C5=82:

I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refused to=
 cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more ambigous on the subj=
ect matter). The real question is if those kinds of trade offs (Curzon line=
 vs. Silesia) could actually have been made. Pilsudski was understandably a=
fraid that compromising on either would mean a loss of both. I think he was=
 right in that regard.elo




>From a purely economic point of view I'm not so sure that the coal of Siles=
ia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People (and especially commies=
) always think that getting rich is based on hard industry, coal, steel and=
 all that. But that's only because Britain, which was the first to industri=
alize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on services. Belgium got r=
ich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agricultural products. Franc=
e's "industrialization" (a misnomer) was in good part agriculture driven. S=
o I don't think that getting the mineral rich Silesia instead of the fertil=
e Kresy was necessarily something worth fighting for -=C2=A0 on economic gr=
ounds.




Radek



2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

I don't have illusions about Dmowski, still he as conservative=C2=A0 and mo=
re part of Entente would not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-which=
 is an accusation oft given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperation =
and military thrust when WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a str=
onger Russia would be needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW with=
 Germany. A Poland largely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be a ri=
cher, safer and better Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federate anywa=
y. And of course what is usually forgotten is that Endeks as supporters of =
neoslavism were more supportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. But as you=
 know it's AH today.


W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com> napisa=C5=82:




It's certainly possible to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was too l=
ittle too late - still, I think he had the right idea though possibly at th=
e wrong time. His ideas though should've been given a chance and not have b=
een torpodoed by Dmowski's people who were motivated much more by "racism" =
(if that's an appropriate term here) which eventually resulted in the pacif=
ications of Ukraine and so on, rather than any kind of clearly defined nati=
onal interest. I think you're giving Dmowski too much credit here - it's no=
t like the guy was a big supporter of Ukrainian independence.

But a Pilsudskite view is not incompatible with agreeing that the integrati=
on with GDo Lithuania was a mistake (which is of course the Jasienica view =
I was referring to) since it re-oriented Poland away from Western Europe. B=
ut Pilsudski came 500+ years after Grunwald and he had to deal with the rea=
lity he inherited - it was as unrealistic to try and turn back the clock at=
 that point as it was to try to form a "Poland for Poles". All things consi=
dered I think that inegrationist/multicultural program was the most realist=
ic of all available options.




Radek



2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

Oh, to me personally Pilsudski represents the failure of Polish thought and=
 all of ills that Kresy brough(I for example believe that the fall of Polan=
d started with integration with Lithuania, bringing Lithuanian magnats into=
 power, and the economic system of feudal plantations of Ukrainians as base=
 of Polish economy). Would much prefer a scenario after WW1 where in which =
Poland is smaller but more western oriented with ethnic Polish territories =
in Silesia, Warmia, and Dmowski helped the White Russians win, which result=
ed in Central European alliance of slavic countries under aegis of Federate=
d Russian Republic. But that is Alternate History alltogether :D Still I re=
spect you as a person and your views. I just don't think they are correct. =
I read the diaries or opinions of Poles from early XX century and they woul=
d not allow for any coexistance with Ukrainian or Belarussian minorites.


W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com> napisa=C5=82:




Well, I know some crazy people too.
Heh, it sounds like you really took your Jasienica (who of course was part =
of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart. I dunno, it's just a big "What If" - i=
nteresting to muse about but just not applicable to analyzing history as sh=
e really happened. My big "what if" is what if the interwar Pilsudski Polan=
d could have transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic, tolerant state =
like the US that knew how to gain from its inherent multiculturalism rather=
 than letting itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalries which only bene=
fited its enemies/neighbors. I'm pretty aware that I'm only "Polish" by a f=
ew accidents of history. This is also why I'm not a big fan of the Endecja =
derived movements of today.




Radek



2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

Really I know quite a few people who would or do.
As to Przemysl it was originally part of Ukrainian state and unfortunetely =
will remain a sore point in future relations.
I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 would regain Kr=C3=B3lewiec=
 and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, while leaving all conquer=
ed Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not perfect.


2009/8/22 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>









Nobody serious=C2=A0in Poland demands former Polish territories called Kres=
y, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there are Ukrainian org=
anizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hope you know abo=
ut it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Poland.

=C2=A0
Tymek

--- On Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:



From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 5:12 PM





There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in Ukraine.

As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by rejecting =
all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once taken over by Poles=
 and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hate speech of certai=
n kresowiacy.


2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>






Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian policitians =
from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russians, by erecting monumen=
ts to and praising=C2=A0people whom the Poles regard as murderers. Am I rig=
ht or not?
=C2=A0
BTW do you know who is main ally of a=C2=A0German pro-Nazi National Democra=
tic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here http://www.natvan.com/national-vanguar=
d/117/ndp.html=C2=A0and here http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNS=
O_NPD.jpg
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Tymek

--- On Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>=20

Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 PM=20





"It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion that the Vo=
lhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger j=
ump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet=
 agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also written on NKVD =
and communist crimes in Volhynia.

That radek, was never what I wrote-I only pointed out that kresowiacy work =
for the benefit or Russia and that society has never been screened well for=
 Soviet/Russian agents. And that Putin's puppets like the seperatists from =
Carpathian Rus are now sending their letters of support to kresowiacy.=20
You know the saying "You Will Know Them By Their Fruits"


W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.=
com> napisa=C5=82:

It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion that the Vol=
hunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger ju=
mp to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet =
agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also written on NKVD a=
nd communist crimes in Volhynia.

As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn't be surpr=
ising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of AK units "reveale=
d" themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole "ally of our allies" worl=
d view (this is why NSZ, even though they played a far more minor role duri=
ng the German occupation, played a bigger role in the fighting with the com=
munists after the war). But I think you're jumping to conclusions here, bef=
ore the actual research can come out.

Radek




2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>


"Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that the Volhyn=
ian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it's possible but also =
doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"



The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. The d=
ifficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates that=
 this was very extensive and widespread.
I can look for more detailed data later but for now:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405


W swojej ksi=C4=85=C5=BCce =E2=80=9EMiecz i tarcza komunizmu=E2=80=9D pisze=
 pan, =C5=BCe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=C5=82ali tak=C5=BCe w jednostkach AK. =
Czy by=C5=82a to silna infiltracja?
Tego jeszcze dok=C5=82adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=C5=BC nie mamy dost=C4=99pu =
do sowieckich dokument=C3=B3w, kt=C3=B3re s=C4=85 teraz w Rosji. To nie jes=
t tylko problem sowieckich dzia=C5=82a=C5=84 wywiadowczych wewn=C4=85trz st=
ruktur polskiego pa=C5=84stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=C5=BCe wewn=C4=85=
trz struktur komunistycznych, gdzie podw=C3=B3jni agenci dzia=C5=82ali jako=
 wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=C5=9B poj=C4=99cie o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=C5=BCemy =
mie=C4=87 obserwuj=C4=85c skal=C4=99 represji, a tak=C5=BCe ich skuteczno=
=C5=9B=C4=87, zastosowan=C4=85 zaraz po wojnie. To, =C5=BCe polska bezpieka=
 i NKWD stosunkowo =C5=82atwo =E2=80=9Eoczy=C5=9Bci=C5=82y=E2=80=9D teren P=
olski z ludzi, o kt=C3=B3rych by=C5=82o wiadomo, =C5=BCe zaanga=C5=BCuj=C4=
=85 si=C4=99 w jaki=C5=9B op=C3=B3r, to =C5=9Bwiadczy, =C5=BCe tego typu dz=
ia=C5=82ania by=C5=82y prowadzone na du=C5=BC=C4=85 skal=C4=99 i by=C5=82y =
do=C5=9B=C4=87 skuteczne.=20
http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html
Machcewicz =C5=9Bwietnie pokazuje zreszt=C4=85, jak przedwojenne podzia=C5=
=82y sceny politycznej dezorganizowa=C5=82y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak p=
rzebiega=C5=82a infiltracja =C5=9Brodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad=
, a z drugiej strony, na czym polega=C5=82a zgubna rywalizacja mi=C4=99dzy =
obozem demokrat=C3=B3w, sanacj=C4=85 i narodowcami =E2=80=93 rywalizacja, k=
t=C3=B3ra prowadzi=C5=82a do zbrodni i samos=C4=85d=C3=B3w.
http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_o=
d_nowa.htm

A jak wygl=C4=85da=C5=82a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? Obawiam si=
=C4=99, =C5=BCe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich w=C5=
=82adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=C5=82ywy. Wykorzystywal=
i to, =C5=BCe AK z czasem zacz=C4=99=C5=82a skr=C4=99ca=C4=87 mocno w lewo.=
 Polskie podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=C4=99=C5=82o w ko=C5=84cu dzia=C5=
=82a=C5=84 zgodnych z niemieckimi interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=C4=87by=
 nieszcz=C4=99sna operacja "Burza" z powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na po=
wstaniu zyska=C5=82a tylko jedna strona - Sowiety. Nale=C5=BCy sobie zada=
=C4=87 pytanie, czy Stalin m=C3=B3g=C5=82, a je=C5=BCeli tak, to w jaki spo=
s=C3=B3b, wp=C5=82yn=C4=85=C4=87 na to, =C5=BCe Warszawa akurat 1 sierpnia =
1944 roku stan=C4=99=C5=82a do walki. Odpowied=C5=BA na to pytanie mog=C5=
=82aby si=C4=99 okaza=C4=87 szokuj=C4=85ca.=20



"They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupid Polacks did=
 not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."
Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn with 16=
% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don't even k=
now how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance.=20


=C2=A0"And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole"=20
I am a Pole not a kresowiak who is more interested in dreams of owning vill=
ages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being under Poles or=
 in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in mudflats of K=
resy, rather=C2=A0 about good of Poland. Currently I can think of no other =
internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Polish state th=
e kresowiacy. The support they receive from Putin and the amount of hate pr=
opaganda they generate shows who are they working for-even if they are as L=
enin put it "useful idiots".
So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to kresowiak if that's wha=
t you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other Poles just=
 to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their game. The k=
resowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people and Poland i=
s higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once opressed or =
dreaming about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.


=C2=A0

"Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughter=
 of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of=C2=A0 Katowice and 74=
% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,=C2=A0and still these =
cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we ca=
n try to=C2=A0justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. I=
n 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and=C2=A066% =
of Torun=C2=A0was German.=C2=A0Nine years later, these cities became part o=
f Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well=
. Still, nobody justifies the Germans."

Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to which Pola=
nd had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no matter how=
 intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not Polish but=
 Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.



"With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the killings=
, but actually organized them, on a large scale"
Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.=
=20


"What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets=
 were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for p=
eople deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what w=
ould you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from thei=
r land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?"

Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in Volhyn were =
colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.





2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>









Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.
=C2=A0
I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Poles, th=
e situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who wante=
d to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or organiz=
ation even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ideal wa=
s to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Palestine.=
 With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the killings=
, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform us o=
f the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just came =
to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, even i=
f they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything.=20
=C2=A0
What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets =
were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for pe=
ople deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what wo=
uld you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from their=
 land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?
=C2=A0
My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilians ca=
n be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles killing =
Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had all t=
he reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Soviet r=
egime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported to Sib=
eria. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances.=20
=C2=A0
Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughter =
of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of=C2=A0 Katowice and 74%=
 of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,=C2=A0and still these c=
ities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can=
 try to=C2=A0justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. In=
 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and=C2=A066% o=
f Torun=C2=A0was German.=C2=A0Nine years later, these cities became part of=
 Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well.=
 Still, nobody justifies the Germans.
=C2=A0
Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the German=
s only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands, and =
they gave a notice before transferring the civilian=C2=A0population to cent=
ral Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimination=
 of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left Polan=
d by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justification for=
 the events of WW2.

It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any other natio=
nality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Pawlokoma, o=
r Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919. Attacki=
ng and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And those who=
 try to do so are accomplices in crime.
=C2=A0
Tymek



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Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Molobo, and&nbsp;how would you imagine W=
armia and Mazury being part of Poland after WW1? Against the wishes of 97% =
of its population? How would you imagine annexation of Opole, against the w=
ishes of 95% of its population?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I too think that Poland made a major mistake, and wasted its resources=
 on senseless wars with Russia and Turkey, plus Cossack uprisings, and plus=
 union with Lithuania, which brought us nothing good. I too think that our =
kings neglected Silesia and Pomerania, but we cannot change history. And th=
e history is that Breslau or Stettin were 90 - 99% German cities in 1939, w=
hile Lwow and Wilno were predominantly Polish cities.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Of course annexation of Volhynia in 1921 was a very stupid idea, of co=
urse Pilsudski cared too much about east, and too little about west. But yo=
u cannot change the fact that in the area of Tarnopol, Poles made some 40 -=
 45% of population, in the are of Grodno - 60%, while in Gdansk/Danzig Pole=
s made only some 5%. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is blind stubborness of Polish elite in the 1930s that was one of t=
he reasons of WW2, and we have to admit it. After construction of Gdynia, P=
oland did not need Gdansk any more. It was all about "honor" as Jozef Beck =
said. We should have allowed Gdansk to become part of Germany, as the city'=
s population wished, and then wait how the events would turn out. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/21/09, radek szulga <I>&lt;rsszulga@gmai=
l.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: radek szulga &lt;rsszulga@gmail.com&gt;<BR>=
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<BR>To: "W=
ikipedia statistics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Friday, Augus=
t 21, 2009, 8:05 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv293718364>I'd love to continue this conversation. But it's tim=
e to go since the train is early in the morning. Next time.<BR><BR>Radek<BR=
><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV class=3Dim>"I think you got it backwards - it's Denikin and then Wrang=
el who refused to cooperate with Pilsudski (although the later was more amb=
igous on the subject matter)."<BR></DIV>Actually Denikin agreed at last to =
Polish state-but with the border on Bug, which Pilsudski refused and allowe=
d Bolsheviks to destroy Denikin armies.<BR>As to Kresy ? The Kresy were a d=
ump to put it frankly. Besides Lviv they offered no resources, no infrastru=
cture, no transportation, no Polish majority almost anywhere, no education,=
 but extreme poverty, swamps, marshes, hostile population and constant conf=
lict with Russia. Poland had developed agriculture already in Wielkopolska =
and Mazowsze, it didn't need any anymore at that price. Besides-they requir=
ed constant police supervision, where the breeding ground of resistance aga=
inst Poland, drained money that was needed elswhere. Poland could not build=
 its position on agriculture anyway-it needed industry to build its
 army and modern transporation.<BR>You are welcomed to see the maps made by=
 Romer:<BR><A href=3D"http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php" target=3D_bla=
nk rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php</A><BR><BR>They sh=
ow how big wasteland the Kresy were.&nbsp; It makes me cry that Poles lost =
so much fighting for such worthless territories, obsessed by their national=
ism.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:46 u=C5=BCytkownik rade=
k szulga <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@gmail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN> napisa=C5=82:<B=
R>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I think you got it bac=
kwards - it's Denikin and then Wrangel who refused to cooperate with Pilsud=
ski (although the later was more ambigous on the subject matter). The real =
question is if those kinds of trade offs (Curzon line vs. Silesia) could ac=
tually have been made. Pilsudski was understandably afraid that compromisin=
g on either would mean a loss of both. I think he was right in that regard.=
elo
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5><BR><BR>From a purely economic point of view I'm not so sur=
e that the coal of Silesia was any better than the farms of Ukraine. People=
 (and especially commies) always think that getting rich is based on hard i=
ndustry, coal, steel and all that. But that's only because Britain, which w=
as the first to industrialize, did it that way. But Netherlands got rich on=
 services. Belgium got rich on farming (dairy). Sweden, Norway also on agri=
cultural products. France's "industrialization" (a misnomer) was in good pa=
rt agriculture driven. So I don't think that getting the mineral rich Siles=
ia instead of the fertile Kresy was necessarily something worth fighting fo=
r -&nbsp; on economic grounds.
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Radek<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I don't have illusions=
 about Dmowski, still he as conservative&nbsp; and more part of Entente wou=
ld not hesitate to help in defeating Bolsheviks-which is an accusation oft =
given against Pilsudski who witheld from cooperation and military thrust wh=
en WR needed it the most. To counterbalance him a stronger Russia would be =
needed, which is ok as it would likely deny IIWW with Germany. A Poland lar=
gely on Curzon Line and more of Silesia would be a richer, safer and better=
 Poland IMHO. And Russia would have to federate anyway. And of course what =
is usually forgotten is that Endeks as supporters of neoslavism were more s=
upportive of alliance with Czechoslovakia. But as you know it's AH today.<B=
R><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:29 u=C5=BCytkownik rade=
k szulga <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@gmail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN> napisa=C5=82:
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">It's certainly possibl=
e to argue that by the time of Pilsudski it was too little too late - still=
, I think he had the right idea though possibly at the wrong time. His idea=
s though should've been given a chance and not have been torpodoed by Dmows=
ki's people who were motivated much more by "racism" (if that's an appropri=
ate term here) which eventually resulted in the pacifications of Ukraine an=
d so on, rather than any kind of clearly defined national interest. I think=
 you're giving Dmowski too much credit here - it's not like the guy was a b=
ig supporter of Ukrainian independence.<BR><BR>But a Pilsudskite view is no=
t incompatible with agreeing that the integration with GDo Lithuania was a =
mistake (which is of course the Jasienica view I was referring to) since it=
 re-oriented Poland away from Western Europe. But Pilsudski came 500+
 years after Grunwald and he had to deal with the reality he inherited - it=
 was as unrealistic to try and turn back the clock at that point as it was =
to try to form a "Poland for Poles". All things considered I think that ine=
grationist/multicultural program was the most realistic of all available op=
tions.
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Radek<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Oh, to me personally P=
ilsudski represents the failure of Polish thought and all of ills that Kres=
y brough(I for example believe that the fall of Poland started with integra=
tion with Lithuania, bringing Lithuanian magnats into power, and the econom=
ic system of feudal plantations of Ukrainians as base of Polish economy). W=
ould much prefer a scenario after WW1 where in which Poland is smaller but =
more western oriented with ethnic Polish territories in Silesia, Warmia, an=
d Dmowski helped the White Russians win, which resulted in Central European=
 alliance of slavic countries under aegis of Federated Russian Republic. Bu=
t that is Alternate History alltogether :D Still I respect you as a person =
and your views. I just don't think they are correct. I read the diaries or =
opinions of Poles from early XX century and they would not allow for any
 coexistance with Ukrainian or Belarussian minorites.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>W dniu 22 sierpnia 2009 02:05 u=C5=BCytkownik rade=
k szulga <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@gmail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN> napisa=C5=82:
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Well, I know some craz=
y people too.<BR>Heh, it sounds like you really took your Jasienica (who of=
 course was part of the Volhynian/Wilno AK) to heart. I dunno, it's just a =
big "What If" - interesting to muse about but just not applicable to analyz=
ing history as she really happened. My big "what if" is what if the interwa=
r Pilsudski Poland could have transformed itself into a viable multi-ethnic=
, tolerant state like the US that knew how to gain from its inherent multic=
ulturalism rather than letting itself be succumbed to inter ethnic rivalrie=
s which only benefited its enemies/neighbors. I'm pretty aware that I'm onl=
y "Polish" by a few accidents of history. This is also why I'm not a big fa=
n of the Endecja derived movements of today.
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Radek<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Really I know quite a =
few people who would or do.<BR>As to Przemysl it was originally part of Ukr=
ainian state and unfortunetely will remain a sore point in future relations=
.<BR>I think it would be better if Poland after 1945 would regain Kr=C3=B3l=
ewiec and achieved a autonomous federation with Sorbs, while leaving all co=
nquered Ukrainian territories. Sadly the world is not perfect.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/22 piotr micula <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basi=
aipiotr@yahoo.com</A>&gt;</SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>Nobody serious&nbsp;in Poland demands former Polish territories called=
 Kresy, and we both know it very well. At the same time, there are Ukrainia=
n organizations which demand Przemysl, Zamosc and Chelm, and I hope you kno=
w about it. Or perhaps you are not interested in southeastern Poland.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;<A href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_=
blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com=
</A>&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/=
mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=
=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [WP=
M] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<BR>To: "Wikipedia statist=
ics" &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wi=
kipedometer.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wik=
ipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A>&gt;<BR></DIV>Date: Friday, Augu=
st 21, 2009, 5:12 PM
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV>There is no doubt that Russian secret service is also present in Ukrai=
ne.<BR><BR>As to your links-indeed we can only try to help the situation by=
 rejecting all Polish demands regarding Ukrainian territories once taken ov=
er by Poles and called Kresy, as well as distancing ourself from hate speec=
h of certain kresowiacy.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 piotr micula <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>Molobo, using your logic we can say that nationalist Ukrainian policit=
ians from Western Ukraine are also working for the Russians, by erecting mo=
numents to and praising&nbsp;people whom the Poles regard as murderers. Am =
I right or not?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW do you know who is main ally of a&nbsp;German pro-Nazi National De=
mocratic Party (NPD) ? The answer is here <A href=3D"http://www.natvan.com/=
national-vanguard/117/ndp.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.n=
atvan.com/national-vanguard/117/ndp.html</A>&nbsp;and here <A href=3D"http:=
//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg" target=3D_blank rel=3Dn=
ofollow>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNA-UNSO_NPD.jpg</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/21/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;<A href=3D"h=
ttp://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_=
blank rel=3Dnofollow>molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc32=
8.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dn=
ofollow>molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;=20
<DIV><BR>Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<=
BR>To: "Wikipedia statistics" &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>fo=
lks@wikipedometer.net</A>&gt;<BR></DIV>Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 3:30 =
PM=20
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV>"It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion that t=
he Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a big=
ger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a S=
oviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also written on =
NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.<BR><BR>That radek, was never what I =
wrote-I only pointed out that kresowiacy work for the benefit or Russia and=
 that society has never been screened well for Soviet/Russian agents. And t=
hat Putin's puppets like the seperatists from Carpathian Rus are now sendin=
g their letters of support to kresowiacy. <BR>You know the saying "<I>You W=
ill Know Them</I> By Their <I>Fruits</I>"<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>W dniu 21 sierpnia 2009 20:53 u=C5=BCytkownik rade=
k szulga <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>rsszulga@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN> napisa=C5=82:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">It's a quite long jump=
 from what you present to the conclusion that the Volhunian AK was acting i=
n Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger jump to the implication =
made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet agent - particularly s=
ince at least his daughter has also written on NKVD and communist crimes in=
 Volhynia.<BR><BR>As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration=
 wouldn't be surprising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of=
 AK units "revealed" themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole "ally o=
f our allies" world view (this is why NSZ, even though they played a far mo=
re minor role during the German occupation, played a bigger role in the fig=
hting with the communists after the war). But I think you're jumping to con=
clusions here, before the actual research can come
 out.<BR><BR>Radek<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc328=
.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dno=
follow>molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>"Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that the V=
olhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it's possible but =
also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. =
The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates=
 that this was very extensive and widespread.<BR>I can look for more detail=
ed data later but for now:<BR><BR><A href=3D"http://www.polskieradio.pl/his=
toria/print.aspx?id=3D68405" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.pols=
kieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405</A><BR><BR>
<DIV><I><B>W swojej ksi=C4=85=C5=BCce =E2=80=9EMiecz i tarcza komunizmu=E2=
=80=9D pisze pan, =C5=BCe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=C5=82ali tak=C5=BCe w jedn=
ostkach AK. Czy by=C5=82a to silna infiltracja?</B></I></DIV>
<DIV><I>Tego jeszcze dok=C5=82adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=C5=BC nie mamy dost=
=C4=99pu do sowieckich dokument=C3=B3w, kt=C3=B3re s=C4=85 teraz w Rosji. T=
o nie jest tylko problem sowieckich dzia=C5=82a=C5=84 wywiadowczych wewn=C4=
=85trz struktur polskiego pa=C5=84stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=C5=BCe w=
ewn=C4=85trz struktur komunistycznych, gdzie podw=C3=B3jni agenci dzia=C5=
=82ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=C5=9B poj=C4=99cie o rozmiarach tej akcji m=
o=C5=BCemy mie=C4=87 obserwuj=C4=85c skal=C4=99 represji, a tak=C5=BCe ich =
skuteczno=C5=9B=C4=87, zastosowan=C4=85 zaraz po wojnie. To, =C5=BCe polska=
 bezpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =C5=82atwo =E2=80=9Eoczy=C5=9Bci=C5=82y=E2=80=
=9D teren Polski z ludzi, o kt=C3=B3rych by=C5=82o wiadomo, =C5=BCe zaanga=
=C5=BCuj=C4=85 si=C4=99 w jaki=C5=9B op=C3=B3r, to =C5=9Bwiadczy, =C5=BCe t=
ego typu dzia=C5=82ania by=C5=82y prowadzone na du=C5=BC=C4=85 skal=C4=99 i=
 by=C5=82y do=C5=9B=C4=87 skuteczne. </I></DIV><BR><A href=3D"http://www.re=
dakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-=
zwykly-czlowiek.html</A><BR><I>Machcewicz =C5=9Bwietnie
 pokazuje zreszt=C4=85, jak przedwojenne podzia=C5=82y sceny politycznej de=
zorganizowa=C5=82y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=C5=82a infiltrac=
ja =C5=9Brodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej strony, na =
czym polega=C5=82a zgubna rywalizacja mi=C4=99dzy obozem demokrat=C3=B3w, s=
anacj=C4=85 i narodowcami =E2=80=93 rywalizacja, kt=C3=B3ra prowadzi=C5=82a=
 do zbrodni i samos=C4=85d=C3=B3w.<BR></I><A href=3D"http://www.niniwa2.cba=
.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm" target=3D_=
blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napis=
zmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm</A><BR>
<DIV><I><FONT face=3DArial><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">A jak wygl=C4=85da=C5=82a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? </SP=
AN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></=
I></DIV><I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=
=3DArial>Obawiam si=C4=99, =C5=BCe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szereg=
ach polskich w=C5=82adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=C5=82y=
wy. Wykorzystywali to, =C5=BCe AK z czasem zacz=C4=99=C5=82a skr=C4=99ca=C4=
=87 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=C4=99=C5=82o w ko=
=C5=84cu dzia=C5=82a=C5=84 zgodnych z niemieckimi interesami, ale z sowieck=
imi. Cho=C4=87by nieszcz=C4=99sna operacja "Burza" z powstaniem warszawskim=
 na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=C5=82a tylko jedna strona - Sowiety. Nale=C5=
=BCy sobie zada=C4=87 pytanie, czy Stalin m=C3=B3g=C5=82, a je=C5=BCeli tak=
, to w jaki spos=C3=B3b, wp=C5=82yn=C4=85=C4=87 na to, =C5=BCe Warszawa aku=
rat 1 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=C4=99=C5=82a do walki. Odpowied=C5=BA na to p=
ytanie mog=C5=82aby si=C4=99 okaza=C4=87 szokuj=C4=85ca.
 </FONT></SPAN></I><BR>
<DIV><BR><BR>"They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupi=
d Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."<BR></DIV>Ye=
s it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn with 16% =
of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don't even kno=
w how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance. <BR>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;"And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole" </DIV>
<DIV>I am a Pole not a<I> kresowiak </I>who is more interested in dreams of=
 owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being un=
der Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in m=
udflats of Kresy, rather&nbsp; about good of Poland. Currently I can think =
of no other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Pol=
ish state the <I>kresowiacy. </I>The support they receive from Putin and th=
e amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they working for-ev=
en if they are as Lenin put it "useful idiots".<BR>So yes Tymek-I do not re=
strict the term of Poles to <I>kresowiak</I> if that's what you mean. This =
group of people wants to take hostage all other Poles just to pursuit their=
 own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their game. The kresowiaks should =
understand that the interest of Polish people and Poland is higher then the=
 dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once opressed or dreaming
 about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.<BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slau=
ghter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowice a=
nd 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and still t=
hese cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, =
we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitt=
er. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&nbsp=
;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities became p=
art of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as=
 well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans."<BR><BR></DIV>Nope-since those =
cities were Germanised and originally Polish to which Poland had right, no =
matter how long under foreign occupation and no matter how intensive German=
isation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not Polish but Polonized and ri=
ghtfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale"<BR></DIV>Likewise Ger=
mans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.=20
<DIV><BR><BR>"What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated tha=
t the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack th=
e stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any bett=
er? Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvi=
ans from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Sib=
eria?"<BR><BR></DIV>Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. P=
oles in Volhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 piotr micula <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.<=
/DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaug=
hter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowice an=
d 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and still th=
ese cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, w=
e can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitte=
r. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&nbsp;=
66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities became pa=
rt of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as =
well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
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