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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 11:50:56 -0500
Message-ID: <25890ca0908160950r35a7319k9d647c0d2613158d@mail.gmail.com>
From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: I've went back and read some old archives and it
	seemed
	from there that yes at one point, when he first joined Wiki Lokyz was
	capable of being cooperative and, well, "normal". But through his
	association with MK, Dr. Dan and Deacon he got radicalized and became
	completely unreasonable. I also think of myself as pro-Lithuanian (half
	my family comes from there - that ain't a Polish last name) but that
	doesn't mean that I can support the sort of extremism that these guys
	push. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Can Lokyz be reported?
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	Content preview:  I've went back and read some old archives and it seemed
	from there that yes at one point, when he first joined Wiki Lokyz was
	capable of being cooperative and, well, "normal". But through his
	association with MK, Dr. Dan and Deacon he got radicalized and became
	completely unreasonable. I also think of myself as pro-Lithuanian (half
	my family comes from there - that ain't a Polish last name) but that
	doesn't mean that I can support the sort of extremism that these guys
	push. [...] 
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I've went back and read some old archives and it seemed from there that yes
at one point, when he first joined Wiki Lokyz was capable of being
cooperative and, well, "normal". But through his association with MK, Dr.
Dan and Deacon he got radicalized and became completely unreasonable.
I also think of myself as pro-Lithuanian (half my family comes from there -
that ain't a Polish last name) but that doesn't mean that I can support the
sort of extremism that these guys push.

Radek


2009/8/16 <PetersJV@aol.com>

>  In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> rsszulga@gmail.com writes:
>
> To the extent that there some truth in this, this is something that could
> normally be discussed and worked out. However there's basically no possible
> way to have a good faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan.
> First time I "met" MK was when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he
> wasn't even involved in, simply because he realized my nationality.
> But from what I know there was a lot more direct and willing collaboration
> in Lithuania than in Latvia. The other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz
> and Co. who cast this dispute in Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of
> Lithuanians didn't collaborate and many (like my grandfather) even joined
> the AK. There's definitely plenty of good in Polish-Lithuanian relations
> over the years - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan who try to downplay it as much
> as possible and instead focus on the negatives which leads to the inevitable
> enmity.
>
> Radek
>
>  I haven't found Lokyz to be completely unreasonable in the past, at least
> when he's not feeling cornered with his back against the wall.
>
> I count myself as both pro-Polish and pro-Lithuanian, from my perspective
> at least both sides tend to descend into the negative side of things through
> no direct intention to do so, such is the unfortunate nature of these
> disputes.
>
> At some point we have to decide what is the most important story over which
> to argue on WP: whether we argue amongst ourselves about which Eastern
> European peoples had their Nazi collaborators and what they did in the name
> of or in the defense against Nazism to each other, or we focus on the fact
> that had the Nazis and Soviets not invaded, *none of that would have
> happened*. Speaking of "widespread", there are specific accounts where
> Lithuanians are (still now) blamed for clearing the countryside of Jews
> while unofficial German correspondence (ignored) squarely states it was
> German commandos who did the killing.
>
> Let's not adopt the same slurs the Soviets and now Russians use against
> anti-Soviets (that is, all "Nazi collaborators" were Jew-killing fascists)
> and apply them to each other. Let's remember that people cooperated to
> survive, and why? Because they had already spent a year under Soviet
> occupation and learned that to not cooperate or to ask questions was to
> disappear.
>
> /Peters
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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I&#39;ve went back and read some old archives and it seemed from there that=
 yes at one point, when he first joined Wiki Lokyz was capable of being coo=
perative and, well, &quot;normal&quot;. But through his association with MK=
, Dr. Dan and Deacon he got radicalized and became completely unreasonable.=
<br>
I also think of myself as pro-Lithuanian (half my family comes from there -=
 that ain&#39;t a Polish last name) but that doesn&#39;t mean that I can su=
pport the sort of extremism that these guys push.<br><br>Radek<br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/16  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:PetersJV@aol.com">PetersJV@aol.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin=
: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><f=
ont size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">
<div><div class=3D"im">
<div>In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com<=
/a> writes:</div>
</div><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid blue; padding-left: 5px; =
margin-left: 5px;"><font style=3D"background-color: transparent;" size=3D"2=
" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><div class=3D"im">To the=20
  extent that there some truth in this, this is something that could normal=
ly be=20
  discussed and worked out. However there&#39;s basically no possible way t=
o have a=20
  good faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan.<br>First time I &quot;me=
t&quot; MK was=20
  when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he wasn&#39;t even involved=
 in,=20
  simply because he realized my nationality.<br></div>But from what I know =
there was a=20
  lot more direct and willing collaboration in Lithuania than in Latvia. Th=
e=20
  other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz and Co. who cast this dispute i=
n=20
  Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of Lithuanians didn&#39;t collaborate and=
 many=20
  (like my grandfather) even joined the AK. There&#39;s definitely plenty o=
f good in=20
  Polish-Lithuanian relations over the years - but it&#39;s Lokyz and Dr. D=
an who=20
  try to downplay it as much as possible and instead focus on the negatives=
=20
  which leads to the inevitable enmity.<br><br>Radek<br></font></blockquote=
></div>
<div></div>
<div>I haven&#39;t found Lokyz to be completely unreasonable in the past, a=
t least=20
when=A0he&#39;s not feeling cornered with his back against the wall.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>I count myself as both pro-Polish and pro-Lithuanian, from my perspect=
ive=20
at least both sides tend to descend into the negative side of things throug=
h no=20
direct intention to do so, such is the unfortunate nature of these=20
disputes.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>At some point we have to decide what is the most important story over =
which=20
to argue on WP: whether we argue amongst ourselves about which Eastern Euro=
pean=20
peoples had their Nazi collaborators and what they did in the name of or in=
 the=20
defense against Nazism to each other, or we focus on the fact that had the =
Nazis=20
and Soviets not invaded, <u>none of that would have happened</u>. Speaking =
of=20
&quot;widespread&quot;, there are specific accounts where Lithuanians are (=
still now)=20
blamed for clearing the countryside of Jews while unofficial German=20
correspondence (ignored) squarely states it was German commandos who did th=
e=20
killing.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Let&#39;s not adopt the same slurs the Soviets and now Russians use ag=
ainst=20
anti-Soviets=A0(that is,=A0all &quot;Nazi collaborators&quot; were Jew-kill=
ing=20
fascists) and apply them to each other. Let&#39;s remember that people coop=
erated to=20
survive, and why? Because they had already spent a year under=A0Soviet=20
occupation and learned that to not cooperate or to ask questions was to=20
disappear.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>/Peters</div></font><div><br><font style=3D"color: black; font-family:=
 arial,san-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: no=
rmal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-st=
retch: normal;"> <hr style=3D"margin-top: 10px;">
</font></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br>

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