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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:32:30 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Ughhh,
	this is what I was afraid of - that other people
	would jump in at the chance to get you. Sciurinea is like the 'attack
	dog' of some of these folks and I'm sure somebody contacted him and
	asked him to file the report (note he never edits the articles himself
	anymore). I can't help but notice how this is the same approach that
	was
	used with Molobo - Sciurinea filed that one too IIRC. I really think
	you
	should make peace with Faustian at this point - basically settle that, 
	and then let's try to turn this around on Sciurinea and whoever else
	shows up. We'd need to dig up some history on Sciurinea here as well
	(Molobo?) - basically to show that even though he doesn't edit Eastern
	European articles anymore he's very much got a strong bias. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Guess who is
	Lukaschek...
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	Content preview:  Ughhh, this is what I was afraid of - that other people
	would jump in at the chance to get you. Sciurinea is like the 'attack
	dog' of some of these folks and I'm sure somebody contacted him and
	asked him to file the report (note he never edits the articles himself
	anymore). I can't help but notice how this is the same approach that was
	used with Molobo - Sciurinea filed that one too IIRC. I really think you
	should make peace with Faustian at this point - basically settle that,
	and then let's try to turn this around on Sciurinea and whoever else
	shows up. We'd need to dig up some history on Sciurinea here as well
	(Molobo?) - basically to show that even though he doesn't edit Eastern
	European articles anymore he's very much got a strong bias. [...] 
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Ughhh, this is what I was afraid of - that other people would jump in at th=
e
chance to get you. Sciurinea is like the 'attack dog' of some of these folk=
s
and I'm sure somebody contacted him and asked him to file the report (note
he never edits the articles himself anymore). I can't help but notice how
this is the same approach that was used with Molobo - Sciurinea filed that
one too IIRC.
I really think you should make peace with Faustian at this point - basicall=
y
settle that, and then let's try to turn this around on Sciurinea and whoeve=
r
else shows up. We'd need to dig up some history on Sciurinea here as well
(Molobo?) - basically to show that even though he doesn't edit Eastern
European articles anymore he's very much got a strong bias.

Other than that, we need comments which point out that a lot of the diffs
that he provides are completely spurious or very old. Also link to previous
instances where Sciurinea went after Polish editors and was told not to
waste admin time. I think the only ones that can hurt you here is the lates=
t
against Faustian which is why, again, it's important to resolve that as
amicably as you can.

It helps to be a little paranoid here. You got to keep in mind that there
ARE plenty of people out there who would like nothing better than to have
you, me, other Polish editors, and other members of this group banned or
blocked and they will exploit every chance. That's why it's so important to
keep our cool, not revert too much, not make any edits that looks like a
personal attack (even when those are obviously justified) and basically not
give them the excuse to report you.

I will comment on this shortly. I think your response so far is pretty good
though it would help a lot if we can dig up some stuff which shows
Sciurinea's anti-Polish bias from the past.

Ok

Now, I got to ask you this; would you be willing to tell Faustian that you
got ahead of yourself in some of your comments to him and that you'll
voluntarily stay away from the Volhynia/UPA articles for awhile, except on
the talk page? Either through email or on his talk page? Like I said, the
recent spat with him is the main thing that has any kind of substance in
Sciurinea's report (at least it seems like it to me) and getting Faustian t=
o
say that Sciurinea's report is over board would do a lot of good.

Radek

2009/8/1 Richard Tylman <poeticbent@hotmail.com>

>
> *More fresh Wiki drama. Read all about it at*
> Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Poeticbent
>
> Cheers,
> Richard (Poeticbent) Tylman
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#P=
oeticbent
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:16:35 -0500
> From: rsszulga@gmail.com
> To: folks@wikipedometer.net
> Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Guess who is
> Lukaschek...
>
>
> According to Woogie the other members of the commission were:
> Dr. Adolf Diestlkamp
> Dr. Rudolf Laun
> Dr. Peter Rassow
> Dr. Hans Rothfels
>
>
> 2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
>
> I've asked Woogie about it, he might know as he seems pretty knowledgeabl=
e
> in this area.
>
> I'm not sure we can catch Skapperod in this although goading him into
> further statements about the "non-Nazi" nature of the commission can be
> helpful in exposing him.
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
>
> If it is Hans Lukaschek then he was the chief of antipolish propaganda
> during fights with Poles in Upper Silesia:
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQIAXSaC3lMQC&pg=3DPA176&dq=3DLukaschek=
&ei=3DZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&hl=3Dpl#v=3Donepage&q=3DLukaschek&f=3Dfalse
>
> 2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
> > Thank you Radek !
> >
> > Also I noted Skapperod comment:
> >
> > "Schieder was the head of the commission, and he had a Nazi past. Yet
> there
> > were also other people in the commission with not such a past, eg
> Oberl=C3=A4nder
> > had broken with Koch already in 1938, and Lukaschek was in the anti-Naz=
i
> > resistance. Sk=C3=A4pper=C3=B6d (talk) "
> >
> > Could you find out the name of the Oberl=C3=A4nder ? Or the names of th=
e
> > commission people ?
> > I think I heard the Oberl=C3=A4nder name before. As to "Anti-Nazi" resi=
stance
> > that's hardly an argument, since many of those despised Poles despite
> > opposing Hitler (Stauffenberg for example).
> >
> > If this is Theodor Oberl=C3=A4nder then Skapperod is either ignorant or=
 trying
> to
> > smuggle under the carpet a very nasty revisionism. Either ways he is in
> deep
> > trouble. Oberl=C3=A4nder was one of the people supporting the Generalpl=
an Ost.
> > Don't let him know that yet. Let us confirm this is this person. Then w=
e
> can
> > reveal that fact and add that the comission was made up partly of forme=
r
> > nazi supporters supporting Generalplan Ost. Btw the current version in
> the
> > article misleads the reader that Generalplan Ost was "expulsion plan"
> rather
> > then extermination plan(as can be sourced in this article from Piotrus
> > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875 )
> >
> > 2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
> >>
> >> I just did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in the Expulsions
> >> article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source- Woogie was nice
> enough
> >> to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and send it to me. I expec=
t
> >> Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a revert or two of him, to
> show
> >> that he is editing against consensus and against sources would be very
> >> helpful. Don't go crazy though - 1 revert with some discussion.
> >>
> >> Radek
> >>
> >>
> >> 2009/7/29 Jack <jacurek@yahoo.com>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I'm away on the trip and
> >>> can't be much help but will do it as soon as I come back.
> >>> Thanks again.
> >>> Jacek
> >>>
> >>> --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Found
> >>> information about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as expelled German=
s
> >>> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> >>> Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM
> >>>
> >>> Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as
> >>> expelled:
> >>> http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf
> >>>
> >>> Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):
> >>> Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99
> >>> dzeniami zostali zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =
=C5=BBydzi oraz
> inne
> >>> ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnione przyp=
adki.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo <molobus@gma=
il.com
> >
> >>> napisa=C5=82:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Radek,
> >>>>
> >>>> Could you give me the link to the file where the numbers are mention=
ed
> ?
> >>>> Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.
> >>>> Here is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with englis=
h
> >>>> translation:
> >>>> http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291
> >>>>
> >>>> This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being
> >>>> well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German
> historians, for
> >>>> example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4risc=
he Verluste
> im
> >>>> Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):
> >>>>
> >>>>   "The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in t=
he
> >>>> immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers=
,
> and
> >>>> similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilia=
ns
> or
> >>>> bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the
> events
> >>>> historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches
> >>>> Bundesamt), the refugees=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical sear=
ch service
> did a
> >>>> lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to
> quantitatively
> >>>> assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The
> result can
> >>>> be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had bee=
n
> killed
> >>>> during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respectiv=
e
> >>>> territories who had died during military service.
> >>>>
> >>>>    These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an
> >>>> integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result n=
ot
> of a
> >>>> counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a
> population
> >>>> balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants
> of the
> >>>> expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must
> therefore be
> >>>> assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events=
.
> In the
> >>>> last years, however, these statements have been increasingly
> questioned, as
> >>>> the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number =
of
> >>>> victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is
> also an
> >>>> unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of t=
he
> >>>> previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could
> always be
> >>>> said, however, that the balance didn=E2=80=99t say that the death of=
 these
> people
> >>>> had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
> >>>>
> >>>> I boldened the important parts. I am also a bit angry because the 2
> >>>> milion mumber does include some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but =
I
> lost
> >>>> the article where it was written.
> >>>>
> >>>> W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytkownik radek szulga <
> rsszulga@gmail.com>
> >>>> napisa=C5=82:
> >>>> > Hey Molobo, my German's next to non existent so could you look at
> >>>> > Skapperod's latest argument
> >>>> >
> >>>> > [
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II=
#Overmans
> ]?
> >>>> > He's trying to claim that Overmans implies that the 2+ million
> figure
> >>>> > has to
> >>>> > be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state th=
at
> >>>> > this is
> >>>> > only part of the picture. It looks to me like Skapperod's trying t=
o
> >>>> > take one
> >>>> > single adjustment out of many and pretend that that's all there is
> to
> >>>> > it.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Radek
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Hi Jacurek-a clear statement that numbers are used by politicians=
 :
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35762,5205417.html
> >>>> >> "Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia=
 i wysiedlenia do
> swoich
> >>>> >> dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i =
liczby, kt=C3=B3re dla
> >>>> >> nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne"
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Since Skapperod has started reverting you perhaps it would be
> better
> >>>> >> if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that
> knows
> >>>> >> Polish and good add this source.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
> >>>> >> > I see you are engaging in debate about casualties numbers and i=
f
> >>>> >> > the
> >>>> >> > numbers
> >>>> >> > were influenced by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Here is a usefull source by Polish historian that could help yo=
u
> >>>> >> > and can
> >>>> >> > be
> >>>> >> > added as well to the sources needed
> >>>> >> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>>> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>>> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>>> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>>> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>> http://wikipedometer..net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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>

--001636426971728beb047018c22f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ughhh, this is what I was afraid of - that other people would jump in at th=
e chance to get you. Sciurinea is like the &#39;attack dog&#39; of some of =
these folks and I&#39;m sure somebody contacted him and asked him to file t=
he report (note he never edits the articles himself anymore). I can&#39;t h=
elp but notice how this is the same approach that was used with Molobo - Sc=
iurinea filed that one too IIRC.<br>
I really think you should make peace with Faustian at this point - basicall=
y settle that, and then let&#39;s try to turn this around on Sciurinea and =
whoever else shows up. We&#39;d need to dig up some history on Sciurinea he=
re as well (Molobo?) - basically to show that even though he doesn&#39;t ed=
it Eastern European articles anymore he&#39;s very much got a strong bias.<=
br>
<br>Other than that, we need comments which point out that a lot of the dif=
fs that he provides are completely spurious or very old. Also link to previ=
ous instances where Sciurinea went after Polish editors and was told not to=
 waste admin time. I think the only ones that can hurt you here is the late=
st against Faustian which is why, again, it&#39;s important to resolve that=
 as amicably as you can.<br>
<br>It helps to be a little paranoid here. You got to keep in mind that the=
re ARE plenty of people out there who would like nothing better than to hav=
e you, me, other Polish editors, and other members of this group banned or =
blocked and they will exploit every chance. That&#39;s why it&#39;s so impo=
rtant to keep our cool, not revert too much, not make any edits that looks =
like a personal attack (even when those are obviously justified) and basica=
lly not give them the excuse to report you.<br>
<br>I will comment on this shortly. I think your response so far is pretty =
good though it would help a lot if we can dig up some stuff which shows Sci=
urinea&#39;s anti-Polish bias from the past.<br><br>Ok<br><br>Now, I got to=
 ask you this; would you be willing to tell Faustian that you got ahead of =
yourself in some of your comments to him and that you&#39;ll voluntarily st=
ay away from the Volhynia/UPA articles for awhile, except on the talk page?=
 Either through email or on his talk page? Like I said, the recent spat wit=
h him is the main thing that has any kind of substance in Sciurinea&#39;s r=
eport (at least it seems like it to me) and getting Faustian to say that Sc=
iurinea&#39;s report is over board would do a lot of good.<br>
<br>Radek<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/1 Richard Tylman <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:poeticbent@hotmail.com">poeticbent@hotmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-le=
ft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: =
1ex;">




<div>
=C2=A0<br>
<b>More fresh Wiki drama. Read=C2=A0all about it at</b> <br>
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Poeticbent<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Cheers, <br>
Richard (Poeticbent) Tylman<br>
=C2=A0<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enfo=
rcement#Poeticbent" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedi=
a:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Poeticbent</a><br>=C2=A0<br>
<hr>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:16:35 -0500<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:=
folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>S=
ubject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Guess who is Luka=
schek...<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>According to Woogie the other members =
of the commission were:<br>
<div>Dr. Adolf Diestlkamp</div>
<div>Dr. Rudolf Laun</div>
<div>Dr. Peter Rassow</div>
<div>Dr. Hans Rothfels</div><br><br>
<div>2009/7/31 radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulg=
a@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 1ex;">I&#39;ve asked Woogie about it, he=
 might know as he seems pretty knowledgeable in this area.<br><br>I&#39;m n=
ot sure we can catch Skapperod in this although goading him into further st=
atements about the &quot;non-Nazi&quot; nature of the commission can be hel=
pful in exposing him.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>Radek</font>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobu=
s@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 1ex;">If it is Hans Lukaschek then he wa=
s the chief of antipolish propaganda<br>during fights with Poles in Upper S=
ilesia:<br><br><a href=3D"http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQIAXSaC3lMQC&a=
mp;pg=3DPA176&amp;dq=3DLukaschek&amp;ei=3DZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&amp;hl=3Dp=
l#v=3Donepage&amp;q=3DLukaschek&amp;f=3Dfalse" target=3D"_blank">http://boo=
ks.google.com/books?id=3DQIAXSaC3lMQC&amp;pg=3DPA176&amp;dq=3DLukaschek&amp=
;ei=3DZF1zSr2fApqUygT0m72RAw&amp;hl=3Dpl#v=3Donepage&amp;q=3DLukaschek&amp;=
f=3Dfalse</a><br>
<br>2009/7/31 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>&gt; Thank you Radek !<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt; Also I noted Skapperod comment:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &quot;Schieder was th=
e head of the commission, and he had a Nazi past. Yet there<br>
&gt; were also other people in the commission with not such a past, eg Ober=
l=C3=A4nder<br>&gt; had broken with Koch already in 1938, and Lukaschek was=
 in the anti-Nazi<br>&gt; resistance. Sk=C3=A4pper=C3=B6d (talk) &quot;<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt; Could you find out the name of the Oberl=C3=A4nder ? Or the na=
mes of the<br>
&gt; commission people ?<br>&gt; I think I heard the Oberl=C3=A4nder name b=
efore. As to &quot;Anti-Nazi&quot; resistance<br>&gt; that&#39;s hardly an =
argument, since many of those despised Poles despite<br>&gt; opposing Hitle=
r (Stauffenberg for example).<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; If this is Theodor Oberl=C3=A4nder then Skapperod is either ig=
norant or trying to<br>&gt; smuggle under the carpet a very nasty revisioni=
sm. Either ways he is in deep<br>&gt; trouble. Oberl=C3=A4nder was one of t=
he people supporting the Generalplan Ost.<br>
&gt; Don&#39;t let him know that yet. Let us confirm this is this person. T=
hen we can<br>&gt; reveal that fact and add that the comission was made up =
partly of former<br>&gt; nazi supporters supporting Generalplan Ost. Btw th=
e current version in the<br>
&gt; article misleads the reader that Generalplan Ost was &quot;expulsion p=
lan&quot; rather<br>&gt; then extermination plan(as can be sourced in this =
article from Piotrus<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.nybooks.com/articles/228=
75" target=3D"_blank">http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875</a> )<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; 2009/7/31 radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I j=
ust did a big rewrite of the Casualties section in the Expulsions<br>&gt;&g=
t; article, based on the Overmans and the Haar source- Woogie was nice enou=
gh<br>
&gt;&gt; to scan in an Overmans ref from the library and send it to me. I e=
xpect<br>&gt;&gt; Skapperod will start reverting it soon and a revert or tw=
o of him, to show<br>&gt;&gt; that he is editing against consensus and agai=
nst sources would be very<br>
&gt;&gt; helpful. Don&#39;t go crazy though - 1 revert with some discussion=
.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Radek<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; 2009/7/=
29 Jack &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jacurek@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">jacurek@=
yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you guys for taking care of Skapperod. I=
&#39;m away on the trip and<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; can&#39;t be much help but will=
 do it as soon as I come back.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks again.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Jacek<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; --- On Tue, 7/28/09, Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [WPM] For Jacurek/additional editors helpfull/Fou=
nd<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; information about Jews killed in Holocaust counted as ex=
pelled Germans<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedomet=
er.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 6:54 PM<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt; Got the fragment about Jews killed in Holocaust being counted as<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt; expelled:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.pism.pl/zalac=
zniki/PPD_39_Haar.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.pism.pl/zalaczniki/PPD_=
39_Haar.pdf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Page 15 of the pdf file(25 in text):<br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt; Do strat zwi=C4=85zanych z wyp=C4=99<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; dzeniami zostal=
i zaliczeni r=C3=B3wnie=C2=BF zamordowani niemieccy =C5=BBydzi oraz inne<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt; ofiary nazizmu, kt=C3=B3re potraktowano jako niewyja=C5=9Bnio=
ne przypadki.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; W dniu 29 lipca 2009 04:28 u=
=C5=BCytkownik Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; napisa=C5=82:<br>&gt=
;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Radek,<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Could yo=
u give me the link to the file where the numbers are mentioned ?<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; Anyway from my memory-Skapperod is lying.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Her=
e is a an example of extensive discussion on Obverman with english<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; translation:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://forum.a=
xishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291" target=3D"_blank">http://forum.axish=
istory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D6291</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well above the mark, has recently been challenged by Germa=
n historians, for<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; example by R=C3=BCdiger Overmans, aut=
hor of Deutsche Milit=C3=A4rische Verluste im<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Zweiten W=
eltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 &quot;The deaths during flight =
and expulsion concerned the Germans in the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; immediate po=
stwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and<br>&gt;&gt;&g=
t;&gt; similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilia=
ns or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; bring families together. A huge scientific project reconst=
ructed the events<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; historiographically, the Federal Stat=
istics Office (Statistisches<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Bundesamt), the refugees=
=E2=80=99 associations and the clerical search service did a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lot with the financial support of the Federal Government t=
o quantitatively<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assess the fate of those expelled as a=
ccurately as possible. The result can<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; be summarized in =
the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; during flight and expulsion - not including those from the=
 respective<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; territories who had died during military se=
rvice.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0These casualty =
figures, however, which for decades have been an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; integral part of the respective serious literature, are th=
e result not of a<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; counting of death records or similar =
concrete data, but of a population<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; balance which conclu=
ded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it m=
ust therefore be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assumed that they had lost their lives=
 in the course of these events. In the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; last years, howe=
ver, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that t=
he number of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; victims can hardly have been higher than 5=
00,000 persons - which is also an<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; unimaginable number o=
f victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it=
 could always be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; said, however, that the balance didn=
=E2=80=99t say that the death of these people<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; had been =
proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I boldened the important parts. I am a=
lso a bit angry because the 2<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; milion mumber does includ=
e some Jews that perished in Holocaust-but I lost<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the a=
rticle where it was written.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; W dniu 29 lipca 2009 01:32 u=C5=BCytko=
wnik radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; napisa=C5=82:<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hey Molobo, my German&#39;s next to non existent so could you=
 look at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Skapperod&#39;s latest argument<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &=
gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; [<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:=
Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans" target=3D"_blank">http://=
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Overmans=
</a>]?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; He&#39;s trying to claim that Overmans implies that t=
he 2+ million figure<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; has to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &g=
t; be revised by only 344,000, whereas other sources clearly state that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; this is<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; only part of the pic=
ture. It looks to me like Skapperod&#39;s trying to<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt=
; take one<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; single adjustment out of many and prete=
nd that that&#39;s all there is to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; it.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;=
 Radek<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; &gt; 2009/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Jacurek-a clear s=
tatement that numbers are used by politicians :<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1=
,35762,5205417.html" target=3D"_blank">http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35=
762,5205417.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Politycy cz=C4=99sto dzi=C5=9B wykorzystuj=
=C4=85 wyp=C4=99dzenia i wysiedlenia do swoich<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 dora=C5=BAnych cel=C3=B3w. Przedstawiaj=C4=85 takie wydarzenia i liczby, k=
t=C3=B3re dla<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; nich s=C4=85 akurat wygodne&quot=
;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Since Skapperod has =
started reverting you perhaps it would be better<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t; if you would be assisted by Radek or Tymek or other editor that knows<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Polish and good add this source.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; 2009=
/7/25 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I see you are engaging in debate about casua=
lties numbers and if<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; numbers<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; were influenced=
 by politicians in Expulsion of Germans article.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Here is a =
usefull source by Polish historian that could help you<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
&gt;&gt; &gt; and can<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; be<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; added as well to the sources needed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339708=
_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,339=
708_Zurek__Gra_w_ofiary.html</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<b=
r>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailm=
an/listinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailm=
an/listinfo/folks</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@w=
ikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/l=
istinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/l=
istinfo/folks</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Inline Attachment Follows=
-----<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; _____________________________________=
__________<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt;=
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wik=
ipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer./" target=3D"_blank">http://wi=
kipedometer.</a>.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=
=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.n=
et</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/=
listinfo/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/=
listinfo/folks</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; __________________________=
_____________________<br>&gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&=
gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@=
wikipedometer.net</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks=
</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br>___________________________________=
____________<br>
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