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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:32:42 +0200
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  According to Skapperod's cite it's this
	http://www.springerlink.com/content/q7k7748261511027/ page 267 I
	changed
	the GpO part but the genocide thing in the lead's got several source.
	It'd be useful to have a source which says that this is in fact a
	fringe
	view. Tomorrow I'm back to no internet so I'm going to wait on this
	till I have more time and access. Radek [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Schieder Commission-important info and source
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	Content preview:  According to Skapperod's cite it's this
	http://www.springerlink.com/content/q7k7748261511027/ page 267 I changed
	the GpO part but the genocide thing in the lead's got several source.
	It'd be useful to have a source which says that this is in fact a fringe
	view. Tomorrow I'm back to no internet so I'm going to wait on this till
	I have more time and access. Radek [...] 
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According to Skapperod's cite it's this
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q7k7748261511027/
page 267

I changed the GpO part but the genocide thing in the lead's got several
source. It'd be useful to have a source which says that this is in fact a
fringe view. Tomorrow I'm back to no internet so I'm going to wait on this
till I have more time and access.
Radek

2009/8/30 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

> Also I see that the Expulsion's article still contains false
> information about Generalplan Ost:
>
>
> During the war, Nazi Germany had planned to colonize eastern Europe
> and expel some forty million people in the extermination scheme known
> as [[Generalplan Ost]]. In the event, the Nazis expelled a far smaller
> number of people in the East
>
> Propose change to:
>
> During the war, Nazi Germany had planned to completely Germanize
> Central and Eastern Europe and eliminate some fifty million people in
> the extermination scheme known as [[Generalplan Ost]]. In the event,
> Germany managed to murder and expell ar smaller number of people
> before its defeat at the hands of the allies.
>
>
> As to terming of Expulsions as genocide and ethnic cleansing-that is a
> fringe and non-majority view, and should not be in the lead.
>
>
> 2009/8/30 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>:
>  > Can you point me to the exact link ? I hate those cover up edits that
> > are made in a way that makes changes non-visible after moving the
> > structure.
> >
> > For polish war losses see this article here:
> >
> > http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,316062_Mit_szesciu_milionow_.html
> >
> > Which gives arguments for both lower and higher then 6 milion figures.
> >
> > As to the Expulsions article-obvious solution is to remove mention
> > about Polish war dead estimates by Haar since information about his
> > particular study of Polish war dead is not relevant to the article.
> >
> > 2009/8/30 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>:
> >> Molobo, can you take a look at the Haar source Skapperod is using here
> >>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DExpulsion_of_Germans_after_Wo=
rld_War_II&diff=3Dcur&oldid=3D310789569
> >> Hes both trying to use it to make Haar sound less credible in the
> expulsions
> >> article and also to put in lower estimates for Polish war deaths in
> History
> >> of Poland article. Since the source is in German I dont know how
> credible
> >> his claims are.
> >>
> >> Radek
> >> 2009/8/30 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>> All my messages are sent through gmail, so everything is backed up.
> >>>
> >>> 2009/8/28 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>:
> >>> > I plan on writing it as soon as I come back from vacation. I'm savi=
ng
> >>> > all
> >>> > the diffs and source links Molobo's providing (though it'd be good =
if
> he
> >>> > kept track of it too for backup) and will make use of them. Just
> can't
> >>> > do it
> >>> > now.
> >>> >
> >>> > Radek
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 2009/8/28 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Molobo Molobo wrote:
> >>> >> > I found an excellent source of information on Schieder commissio=
n:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Britain, Germany and the Cold War: the search for a European
> D=E9tente,
> >>> >> > 1949-1967
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > by R. Gerald Hughes
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > page 74
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Writes that Schieder recruited for the commission especialy his
> >>> >> > former
> >>> >> > Nazi co-workers for the specific purpouse of engaging in
> propaganda
> >>> >> > on
> >>> >> > behalf of West-German government.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> http://books.google.com/books?lr=3D&ei=3DtE6WSv23IpqUygSazvXOBw&hl=3Dpl&a=
s_brr=3D3&as_drrb_is=3Dq&as_minm_is=3D0&as_miny_is=3D&as_maxm_is=3D0&as_max=
y_is=3D&id=3DvicYzfDpqoQC&dq=3Dwerner+conze+poles&q=3Dconze#v=3Dsnippet&q=
=3Dconze&f=3Dfalse
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Great. Will this article ever be created, or are just wasting our
> time
> >>> >> as a listerv discussion group? :>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Piotr Konieczny
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, no=
t
> in
> >>> >> theory."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >>> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >> folks@wikipedometer.net
> >> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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<div>According to Skapperod&#39;s cite it&#39;s this</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://www.springerlink.com/content/q7k7748261511027/">http=
://www.springerlink.com/content/q7k7748261511027/</a></div>
<div>page 267</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>I changed the GpO part but the genocide thing in the lead&#39;s got se=
veral source. It&#39;d be useful to have a source which says that this is i=
n fact a fringe view. Tomorrow I&#39;m back to no internet so I&#39;m going=
 to wait on this till I have more time and access.</div>

<div>Radek<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/30 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Also I see that the Expulsion&#3=
9;s article still contains false<br>information about Generalplan Ost:<br>
<br><br>During the war, Nazi Germany had planned to colonize eastern Europe=
<br>and expel some forty million people in the extermination scheme known<b=
r>as [[Generalplan Ost]]. In the event, the Nazis expelled a far smaller<br=
>
number of people in the East<br><br>Propose change to:<br><br>During the wa=
r, Nazi Germany had planned to completely Germanize<br>Central and Eastern =
Europe and eliminate some fifty million people in<br>the extermination sche=
me known as [[Generalplan Ost]]. In the event,<br>
Germany managed to murder and expell ar smaller number of people<br>before =
its defeat at the hands of the allies.<br><br><br>As to terming of Expulsio=
ns as genocide and ethnic cleansing-that is a<br>fringe and non-majority vi=
ew, and should not be in the lead.<br>
<br><br>2009/8/30 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">mo=
lobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">&gt; Can you point me to the exact link ? I hate those co=
ver up edits that<br>&gt; are made in a way that makes changes non-visible =
after moving the<br>&gt; structure.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; For polish war losses s=
ee this article here:<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,316062_Mit_szesciu_milio=
now_.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,316062_Mit_szesciu_=
milionow_.html</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; Which gives arguments for both lower and=
 higher then 6 milion figures.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; As to the Expulsions article-obvious solution is to remove men=
tion<br>&gt; about Polish war dead estimates by Haar since information abou=
t his<br>&gt; particular study of Polish war dead is not relevant to the ar=
ticle.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; 2009/8/30 radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.co=
m">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>&gt;&gt; Molobo, can you take a look at t=
he Haar source Skapperod is using here<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://en.wik=
ipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DExpulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;=
diff=3Dcur&amp;oldid=3D310789569" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org=
/w/index.php?title=3DExpulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&amp;diff=3Dcur=
&amp;oldid=3D310789569</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Hes both trying to use it to make Haar sound less credible in the =
expulsions<br>&gt;&gt; article and also to put in lower estimates for Polis=
h war deaths in History<br>&gt;&gt; of Poland article. Since the source is =
in German I dont know how credible<br>
&gt;&gt; his claims are.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Radek<br>&gt;&gt; 2009/8/3=
0 Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; All my messages are sent through gm=
ail, so everything is backed up.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; 2009/8/28 radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
sszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I plan =
on writing it as soon as I come back from vacation. I&#39;m saving<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt; &gt; all<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; the diffs and source links Molobo&#39;s providing (though=
 it&#39;d be good if he<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; kept track of it too for backu=
p) and will make use of them. Just can&#39;t<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; do it<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; now.<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Radek<br>&=
gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; 2009/8/28 Piotr =
Konieczny &lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &=
gt;&gt; Molobo Molobo wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I found an excellent source of information on Sc=
hieder commission:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &=
gt; Britain, Germany and the Cold War: the search for a European D=E9tente,=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 1949-1967<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; by R. Gerald Hughes<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; page 74<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Writes that Schieder recruited for the commission espec=
ialy his<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; former<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Nazi co-wor=
kers for the specific purpouse of engaging in propaganda<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt; on<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; behalf of West-German governme=
nt.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://books.google.co=
m/books?lr=3D&amp;ei=3DtE6WSv23IpqUygSazvXOBw&amp;hl=3Dpl&amp;as_brr=3D3&am=
p;as_drrb_is=3Dq&amp;as_minm_is=3D0&amp;as_miny_is=3D&amp;as_maxm_is=3D0&am=
p;as_maxy_is=3D&amp;id=3DvicYzfDpqoQC&amp;dq=3Dwerner+conze+poles&amp;q=3Dc=
onze#v=3Dsnippet&amp;q=3Dconze&amp;f=3Dfalse" target=3D"_blank">http://book=
s.google.com/books?lr=3D&amp;ei=3DtE6WSv23IpqUygSazvXOBw&amp;hl=3Dpl&amp;as=
_brr=3D3&amp;as_drrb_is=3Dq&amp;as_minm_is=3D0&amp;as_miny_is=3D&amp;as_max=
m_is=3D0&amp;as_maxy_is=3D&amp;id=3DvicYzfDpqoQC&amp;dq=3Dwerner+conze+pole=
s&amp;q=3Dconze#v=3Dsnippet&amp;q=3Dconze&amp;f=3Dfalse</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Great. Will this article eve=
r be created, or are just wasting our time<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; as a li=
sterv discussion group? :&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;=
&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Piotr Konieczny<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in re=
ality, not in<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; theory.&quot;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&g=
t;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &g=
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istinfo/folks</a><br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;=
 <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>=
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