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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:58:23 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Indeed-the UPA never intended to exterminate Polish
	nation-just to remove Polish presence from Ukrainian territories. They
	are several known cases where it called on Poles to move out of their
	settlements and leave disputed territories. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  Indeed-the UPA never intended to exterminate Polish
	nation-just to remove Polish presence from Ukrainian territories. They
	are several known cases where it called on Poles to move out of their
	settlements and leave disputed territories. [...] 
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Indeed-the UPA never intended to exterminate Polish nation-just to remove
Polish presence from Ukrainian territories. They are several known cases
where it called on Poles to move out of their settlements and leave disputed
territories.

2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>

> "it was just ethnic cleansing at most"
>
> Nothing to add here. Thanks for showing your position.
>
> Tymek
>
> --- On *Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
> To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 5:38 PM
>
>
> "Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from former Eastern
> Poland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet regime and
> Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth for years -
> first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian Genocide."
>
> Actually I have seen mostly lies and virulent nationalism from that group
> rather then truth. Including the bizarre accusation of genocide-where in
> fact it was just ethnic cleansing at most. I don't understand why you are
> shocked. Eastern units of AK were quite infiltrated by Soviet agents, that
> isn't something unknown. I don't think there is any reason why Soviets
> should restrict themselfs to recruiting only among the AK and not reaching
> out to agents in civilian population.So far the support the so called
> "kresowiacy" are gathering is from Putin's agents and from his puppet's. So
> far the only benefit they are making is for Russia and and destruction of
> independent Ukraine by producing lies and hate propaganda against Ukrainian
> people.  If you want to look for who somebody works then look who earns most
> from his actions. I am certain though most are naive fools, too sentimental
> for their own memories about the Kresy to see any truth about Polish
> opression of Ukrainian and Belarussian people that happened. I wouldn't be
> surprised if they were some Soviet agents left among them. Certainly the
> fact that those who by miracle survived Soviet are screaming loudest hate
> propaganda against Ukrainians thus destroying Polish-Ukrainian relations at
> the benefit of Russia seems interesting.
> This goes to Ukraine too-it seems that some of Ukrainian nationalists have
> been accused of receiving money from Moscow.
> Of course we Poles have to understand that Ukrainians come here from the
> position of victims and of real Polish arrogance regarding the treatment of
> Volhyn- were Poles were just 16% of population(and after colonization) and
> yet even today even neutral scholars speak that Second Polish Republic had
> some "right" to Volhyn. Well I can only hope the the Kresy "madness" will
> one day be cured from my Polish brethen.
>
> 2009/8/20 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
> >
>
>>   Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from former
>> Eastern Poland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet
>> regime and Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth
>> for years - first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian
>> Genocide.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that Armenian - Polish Father Isakowicz-Zaleski, who
>> lost several members of his family, murdered by the Ukrainians in 1944 in
>> Podolia, is a Soviet/Russian agent? Are you suggesting that those who are
>> fighting for rememberance and for human burial of bones of their
>> grandparents are agents?  These people suffered more than we can all
>> imagine, and now they are called Soviet agents. Shame.
>>
>> Why is it that when a Pole mentions Volhynian Genocide, he is dubbed an
>> agent, but when a Ukrainian builds a monument to the murderes, he is not
>> dubbed one?
>>
>> Tymek
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=molobus@gmail.com>
>> >* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=molobus@gmail.com>
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
>> To: folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=folks@wikipedometer.net>
>> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 7:02 AM
>>
>>
>> Interestingly I see that Bandurist actually did insert a very puzzling
>> piece of information:
>> *Initially Siemaszko was imprisoned by [[NKVD]] in [[Lutsk]], until the
>> [[Nazi German]] attack on the [[Soviet Union]] in June 1941. The
>> retreating Soviet military police units routinely massacred Polish prisoners
>> as "political enemies". Siemaszko survived. *
>>
>> To me it's interesting-for a long time I was personally interested why
>> there never was a study on Soviet infiltration of the so-called
>> "Kresowiacy"(for example Catholic Church in Poland was studied). I guess it
>> might be due to lack of access of the Soviet archives. But logic dictates
>> that they would be the most inflitrated group due to longer history under
>> Soviet occupation and immiediate presence of Soviets. You might want to know
>> that the recent supporters of the "kresowiacy" attacks against Ukraine are
>> coming from Putin supporters like Petr Hecko. Petr Hecko is a separatists in
>> Ukrainian territories of Rusins* who are supported by Putin's Russia and
>> handing out Russian passports to Ukrainian citizens in Ukrainian Carpathia
>> region*. Lately *they directly contacted Kresowiacy offering them support
>> for attacks against Ukrainians(http://www.bibula.com/?p=12585).
>>
>> *So we should be cautious in dealings with those subjects. A lot of it is
>> not what it seems, and Russians know very well how to manipulate naive
>> Polish nationalists.
>> *
>> *
>> 2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=molobus@gmail.com>
>> >
>>
>>> Hmm the Siemiaszko articles misses that the is not considered a reliable
>>> historian and writes  solely from his perspective as fighter against
>>> Ukrainians and Polish nationalists
>>> http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf
>>>
>>> Plus he writes bizarre things like that Ukrainians wanted to exterminate
>>> Polish nation(while in fact they are numerous cases in Wolyn where UPA
>>> ordered Poles simply to leave).
>>>
>>> I think we should mention that he is not reliable historian in the
>>> article and see if anything is sourced by him, as it would present a very
>>> POV opinion from non-RS source. Perhaps someone can add on this ?
>>>
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
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>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net<http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=folks@wikipedometer.net>
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
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>>
>
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Indeed-the UPA never intended to exterminate Polish nation-just to remove P=
olish presence from Ukrainian territories. They are several known cases whe=
re it called on Poles to move out of their settlements and leave disputed t=
erritories. <br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjus=
t: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div class=3D"im"><div>&quot;it was just ethnic cleansing at most&quot;</di=
v>
<div>=A0</div>
</div><div>Nothing to add here. Thanks for showing your position.</div><div=
 class=3D"im">
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Tymek<br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b=
> wrote:<br></div>
</div><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding=
-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><div class=3D"im"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<br></div>=
To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedome=
ter.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>Date: Thursda=
y, August 20, 2009, 5:38 PM<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
<div>&quot;Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from forme=
r Eastern Poland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet r=
egime and Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth =
for years - first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian Geno=
cide.&quot; <br>
<br>Actually I have seen mostly lies and virulent nationalism from that gro=
up rather then truth. Including the bizarre accusation of genocide-where in=
 fact it was just ethnic cleansing at most. I don&#39;t understand why you =
are shocked. Eastern units of AK were quite infiltrated by Soviet agents, t=
hat isn&#39;t something unknown. I don&#39;t think there is any reason why =
Soviets should restrict themselfs to recruiting only among the AK and not r=
eaching out to agents in civilian population.So far the support the so call=
ed &quot;kresowiacy&quot; are gathering is from Putin&#39;s agents and from=
 his puppet&#39;s. So far the only benefit they are making is for Russia
 and and destruction of independent Ukraine by producing lies and hate prop=
aganda against Ukrainian people.=A0 If you want to look for who somebody wo=
rks then look who earns most from his actions. I am certain though most are=
 naive fools, too sentimental for their own memories about the Kresy to see=
 any truth about Polish opression of Ukrainian and Belarussian people that =
happened. I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if they were some Soviet agents left =
among them. Certainly the fact that those who by miracle survived Soviet ar=
e screaming loudest hate propaganda against Ukrainians thus destroying Poli=
sh-Ukrainian relations at the benefit of Russia seems interesting. <br>
This goes to Ukraine too-it seems that some of Ukrainian nationalists have =
been accused of receiving money from Moscow.<br>Of course we Poles have to =
understand that Ukrainians come here from the position of victims and of re=
al Polish arrogance regarding the treatment of Volhyn- were Poles were
 just 16% of population(and after colonization) and yet even today even neu=
tral scholars speak that Second Polish Republic had some &quot;right&quot; =
to Volhyn. Well I can only hope the the Kresy &quot;madness&quot; will one =
day be cured from my Polish brethen.<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/20 piotr micula <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span><=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from former East=
ern Poland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet regime =
and Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth for ye=
ars - first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian Genocide. =
</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Are you suggesting that Armenian - Polish Father Isakowicz-Zaleski, wh=
o lost several members of his family, murdered by the Ukrainians in 1944 in=
 Podolia, is a Soviet/Russian agent? Are you suggesting that those who are =
fighting for rememberance and for human burial of bones of their grandparen=
ts are agents?=A0 These people suffered more than we can all imagine, and n=
ow they are called Soviet agents. Shame. </div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Why is it that when a Pole mentions Volhynian Genocide, he is dubbed a=
n agent, but when a Ukrainian builds a monument to the murderes, he is not =
dubbed one?</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Tymek</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div><br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <i>&lt;<a href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow=
" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left:=
 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"http://us.m=
c328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<br>To: <a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer=
.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>Dat=
e: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 7:02 AM
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>Interestingly I see that Bandurist actually did insert a very puzzling=
 piece of information:<br><i><span>Initially Siemaszko </span>was imprisone=
d <span>by [[NKVD]] </span>in [[<span>Lutsk</span>]], <span>until </span>th=
e [[<span>Nazi German</span>]] <span>attack on the </span>[[<span>Soviet Un=
ion</span>]] <span>in June 1941. The retreating Soviet military police unit=
s routinely massacred Polish prisoners as &quot;political enemies&quot;. Si=
emaszko survived</span>. </i><br>
<br>To me it&#39;s interesting-for a long time I was personally interested =
why there never was a study on Soviet infiltration of the so-called &quot;K=
resowiacy&quot;(for example Catholic Church in Poland was studied). I guess=
 it might be due to lack of access of the Soviet archives. But logic dictat=
es that they would be the most inflitrated group due to longer history unde=
r Soviet occupation and immiediate presence of Soviets. You might want to k=
now that the recent supporters of the &quot;kresowiacy&quot; attacks
 against Ukraine are coming from Putin supporters like Petr Hecko. Petr Hec=
ko is a separatists in Ukrainian territories of Rusins<b> who are supported=
 by Putin&#39;s Russia and handing out Russian passports to Ukrainian citiz=
ens in Ukrainian Carpathia region</b>. Lately <b>they directly contacted Kr=
esowiacy offering them support for attacks against Ukrainians(<a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.bibula.com/?p=3D12585" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.bibula.com/?p=3D12585</a>).<br>
<br></b>So we should be cautious in dealings with those subjects. A lot of =
it is not what it seems, and Russians know very well how to manipulate naiv=
e Polish nationalists.<br><b><br></b><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hmm the Siemiaszk=
o articles misses that the is not considered a reliable historian and write=
s=A0 solely from his perspective as fighter against Ukrainians and Polish n=
ationalists<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wn=
uk.pdf" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece=
/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf</a><br><br>Plus he writes bizarre th=
ings like that Ukrainians wanted to exterminate Polish nation(while in fact=
 they are numerous cases in Wolyn where UPA ordered Poles simply to leave).=
<br>
<br>I think we should mention that he is not reliable historian in the arti=
cle and see if anything is sourced by him, as it would present a very POV o=
pinion from non-RS source. Perhaps someone can add on this ?<br></blockquot=
e>
</div><br></div><br></div></div>-----Inline Attachment
 Follows-----
<div><br><br>
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s discussion list<br><a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikip=
edometer.net</a><br>
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nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listin=
fo/folks</a><br></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br>=
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br><a href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yah=
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