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Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:21:17 +0300
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	Content preview:  On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 22:11, Molobo Molobo
	<molobus@gmail.com> wrote: > I am preparing a RfC regarding Skapperod, I
	would be interested what you > think and could advise ? 1. It might be
	useful to use "Nazi" in favour of "Nazi German". Then, the risk of
	misinterpreting the issue as an ethnic conflict -- either accidentally
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Subject: Re: [WPM] RfC regarding Skapperod
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	Content preview:  On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 22:11, Molobo Molobo
	<molobus@gmail.com> wrote: > I am preparing a RfC regarding Skapperod, I
	would be interested what you > think and could advise ? 1. It might be
	useful to use "Nazi" in favour of "Nazi German". Then, the risk of
	misinterpreting the issue as an ethnic conflict -- either accidentally
	or wilfully -- will be slightly lower. 2. Passive voice is a common
	trick of people trying to leave out crucial details, and many
	Wikipedians are aware of it. Accordingly, do not use ambiguous passive
	voice unless strictly necessary. For example, instead of "It was
	protested", say "It was protested by user X", or if the protest was
	common, "Several users protested". 3. Impressive-sounding in-text
	summaries are useful. They won't turn anybody to your side, but they
	will provide hooks for minds who are inclined to agree, making it easier
	for them to agree with you in "their own words". For example, in the
	"You call me a Nazi?!" episode, a brief mention of "unwillingness to
	discuss reliability of sources" might be useful. Pointing to AGF might
	seem useful in this context, but probably isn't; too obvious, and not
	impressive enough. 4. Spelling: instead of "Immiedetly", it ought to be
	"Immediately". Nowadays, good browsers have spellcheckers built into
	them; there are certainly other ways to have a machine scan for
	problems. 5. The "Readers should take note that the term Polish
	"bandits" ..." part probably does not work. It's a MEGO tidbit, easily
	ignored and thus contributes to the post's dead length. If you can make
	use of the insult without it, do so; if not, it's probably best to just
	take the whole thing out. 6. Instead of "Trying to intimidate", say
	"Intimidation". It's not his fault he failed, if he did. 7. Throughout
	the overview, when referring to a discussion thread, briefly mention its
	outcome. If intimidation involved making a baseless AE report, then make
	sure to point out that after discussion, no enforcement action was
	undertaken. [...] 
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On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 22:11, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am preparing a RfC regarding Skapperod, I would be interested what you
> think and could advise ?


1. It might be useful to use "Nazi" in favour of "Nazi German".  Then, the
risk of misinterpreting the issue as an ethnic conflict -- either
accidentally or wilfully -- will be slightly lower.
2. Passive voice is a common trick of people trying to leave out crucial
details, and many Wikipedians are aware of it.  Accordingly, do not use
ambiguous passive voice unless strictly necessary.  For example, instead of
"It was protested", say "It was protested by user X", or if the protest was
common, "Several users protested".
3. Impressive-sounding in-text summaries are useful.  They won't turn
anybody to your side, but they will provide hooks for minds who are incline=
d
to agree, making it easier for them to agree with you in "their own words".
 For example, in the "You call me a Nazi?!" episode, a brief mention of
"unwillingness to discuss reliability of sources" might be useful.  Pointin=
g
to AGF might seem useful in this context, but probably isn't; too obvious,
and not impressive enough.
4. Spelling: instead of "Immiedetly", it ought to be "Immediately".
 Nowadays, good browsers have spellcheckers built into them; there are
certainly other ways to have a machine scan for problems.
5. The "Readers should take note that the term Polish "bandits" ..." part
probably does not work.  It's a MEGO tidbit, easily ignored and thus
contributes to the post's dead length.  If you can make use of the insult
without it, do so; if not, it's probably best to just take the whole thing
out.
6. Instead of "Trying to intimidate", say "Intimidation".  It's not his
fault he failed, if he did.
7. Throughout the overview, when referring to a discussion thread, briefly
mention its outcome.  If intimidation involved making a baseless AE report,
then make sure to point out that after discussion, no enforcement action wa=
s
undertaken.

Finally, and perhaps most problematically -- some parts of your argument
appear to be that "Sk=C3=A4pperod is not being neutral between Nazis and
Commies".  I have a very nagging suspicion that the points hidden in this
are lost on most of the Western Wikipedians.  It *might* be more useful to
just emphasize Sk=C3=A4pperod's blind reliance on Nazi materials rather tha=
n
compare these two.  Every Western person knows what the Nazis were, and in =
a
simple context, it's easy to disapprove of them and everybody who would
associate with them.  But comparison is much trickier stuff, and the fact
that everybody knows what the Nazis were might not help you anymore.  BUT
note that I lack experience in this area, so take this point with an
especially large grain of salt.

Naturally, I welcome discussion over all these suggestions.

--=20
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 22:11, Molobo Molobo <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I am preparing a RfC regarding Skapperod, I would be interested what you th=
ink and could advise ?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>1. It might be usefu=
l to use &quot;Nazi&quot; in favour of &quot;Nazi German&quot;. =C2=A0Then,=
 the risk of misinterpreting the issue as an ethnic conflict -- either acci=
dentally or wilfully -- will be slightly lower.</div>
<div>2. Passive voice is a common trick of people trying to leave out cruci=
al details, and many Wikipedians are aware of it. =C2=A0Accordingly, do not=
 use ambiguous passive voice unless strictly necessary. =C2=A0For example, =
instead of &quot;It was protested&quot;, say &quot;It was protested by user=
 X&quot;, or if the protest was common, &quot;Several users protested&quot;=
.</div>
<div>3. Impressive-sounding in-text summaries are useful. =C2=A0They won&#3=
9;t turn anybody to your side, but they will provide hooks for minds who ar=
e inclined to agree, making it easier for them to agree with you in &quot;t=
heir own words&quot;. =C2=A0For example, in the &quot;You call me a Nazi?!&=
quot; episode, a brief mention of &quot;unwillingness to discuss reliabilit=
y of sources&quot; might be useful. =C2=A0Pointing to AGF might seem useful=
 in this context, but probably isn&#39;t; too obvious, and not impressive e=
nough.</div>
<div>4. Spelling: instead of &quot;Immiedetly&quot;, it ought to be &quot;I=
mmediately&quot;. =C2=A0Nowadays, good browsers have spellcheckers built in=
to them; there are certainly other ways to have a machine scan for problems=
.</div>
<div>5. The &quot;Readers should take note that the term Polish &quot;bandi=
ts&quot; ...&quot; part probably does not work. =C2=A0It&#39;s a MEGO tidbi=
t, easily ignored and thus contributes to the post&#39;s dead length. =C2=
=A0If you can make use of the insult without it, do so; if not, it&#39;s pr=
obably best to just take the whole thing out.</div>
<div>6. Instead of &quot;Trying to intimidate&quot;, say &quot;Intimidation=
&quot;. =C2=A0It&#39;s not his fault he failed, if he did.</div><div>7. Thr=
oughout the overview, when referring to a discussion thread, briefly mentio=
n its outcome. =C2=A0If intimidation involved making a baseless AE report, =
then make sure to point out that after discussion, no enforcement action wa=
s undertaken.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Finally, and perhaps most problematically -- some parts=
 of your argument appear to be that &quot;Sk=C3=A4pperod is not being neutr=
al between Nazis and Commies&quot;. =C2=A0I have a very nagging suspicion t=
hat the points hidden in this are lost on most of the Western Wikipedians. =
=C2=A0It *might* be more useful to just emphasize Sk=C3=A4pperod&#39;s blin=
d reliance on Nazi materials rather than compare these two. =C2=A0Every Wes=
tern person knows what the Nazis were, and in a simple context, it&#39;s ea=
sy to disapprove of them and everybody who would associate with them. =C2=
=A0But comparison is much trickier stuff, and the fact that everybody knows=
 what the Nazis were might not help you anymore. =C2=A0BUT note that I lack=
 experience in this area, so take this point with an especially large grain=
 of salt.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Naturally, I welcome discussion over all these suggesti=
ons.</div><div><br></div></div>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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