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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: "it was just ethnic cleansing at most" Nothing to add
	here. Thanks for showing your position. Tymek --- On Thu, 8/20/09,
	Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote: From: Molobo Molobo
	<molobus@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [WPM]
	Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian
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	<molobus@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian
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"it was just ethnic cleansing at most"
=A0
Nothing to add here. Thanks for showing your position.
=A0
Tymek

--- On Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 5:38 PM


"Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from former Eastern =
Poland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet regime and =
Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth for years =
- first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian Genocide."=20

Actually I have seen mostly lies and virulent nationalism from that group r=
ather then truth. Including the bizarre accusation of genocide-where in fac=
t it was just ethnic cleansing at most. I don't understand why you are shoc=
ked. Eastern units of AK were quite infiltrated by Soviet agents, that isn'=
t something unknown. I don't think there is any reason why Soviets should r=
estrict themselfs to recruiting only among the AK and not reaching out to a=
gents in civilian population.So far the support the so called "kresowiacy" =
are gathering is from Putin's agents and from his puppet's. So far the only=
 benefit they are making is for Russia and and destruction of independent U=
kraine by producing lies and hate propaganda against Ukrainian people.=A0 I=
f you want to look for who somebody works then look who earns most from his=
 actions. I am certain though most are naive fools, too sentimental for the=
ir own memories about the Kresy to see any truth about Polish
 opression of Ukrainian and Belarussian people that happened. I wouldn't be=
 surprised if they were some Soviet agents left among them. Certainly the f=
act that those who by miracle survived Soviet are screaming loudest hate pr=
opaganda against Ukrainians thus destroying Polish-Ukrainian relations at t=
he benefit of Russia seems interesting.=20
This goes to Ukraine too-it seems that some of Ukrainian nationalists have =
been accused of receiving money from Moscow.
Of course we Poles have to understand that Ukrainians come here from the po=
sition of victims and of real Polish arrogance regarding the treatment of V=
olhyn- were Poles were just 16% of population(and after colonization) and y=
et even today even neutral scholars speak that Second Polish Republic had s=
ome "right" to Volhyn. Well I can only hope the the Kresy "madness" will on=
e day be cured from my Polish brethen.


2009/8/20 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>






Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from former Eastern P=
oland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet regime and U=
krainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth for years -=
 first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian Genocide.=20
=A0
Are you suggesting that Armenian - Polish Father Isakowicz-Zaleski, who los=
t several members of his family, murdered by the Ukrainians in 1944 in Podo=
lia, is a Soviet/Russian agent? Are you suggesting that those who are fight=
ing for rememberance and for human burial of bones of their grandparents ar=
e agents?=A0 These people suffered more than we can all imagine, and now th=
ey are called Soviet agents. Shame.=20
=A0
Why is it that when a Pole mentions Volhynian Genocide, he is dubbed an age=
nt, but when a Ukrainian builds a monument to the murderes, he is not dubbe=
d one?
=A0
Tymek
=A0


--- On Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
To: folks@wikipedometer.net
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 7:02 AM





Interestingly I see that Bandurist actually did insert a very puzzling piec=
e of information:
Initially Siemaszko was imprisoned by [[NKVD]] in [[Lutsk]], until the [[Na=
zi German]] attack on the [[Soviet Union]] in June 1941. The retreating Sov=
iet military police units routinely massacred Polish prisoners as "politica=
l enemies". Siemaszko survived.=20

To me it's interesting-for a long time I was personally interested why ther=
e never was a study on Soviet infiltration of the so-called "Kresowiacy"(fo=
r example Catholic Church in Poland was studied). I guess it might be due t=
o lack of access of the Soviet archives. But logic dictates that they would=
 be the most inflitrated group due to longer history under Soviet occupatio=
n and immiediate presence of Soviets. You might want to know that the recen=
t supporters of the "kresowiacy" attacks against Ukraine are coming from Pu=
tin supporters like Petr Hecko. Petr Hecko is a separatists in Ukrainian te=
rritories of Rusins who are supported by Putin's Russia and handing out Rus=
sian passports to Ukrainian citizens in Ukrainian Carpathia region. Lately =
they directly contacted Kresowiacy offering them support for attacks agains=
t Ukrainians(http://www.bibula.com/?p=3D12585).

So we should be cautious in dealings with those subjects. A lot of it is no=
t what it seems, and Russians know very well how to manipulate naive Polish=
 nationalists.



2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

Hmm the Siemiaszko articles misses that the is not considered a reliable hi=
storian and writes=A0 solely from his perspective as fighter against Ukrain=
ians and Polish nationalists
http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf

Plus he writes bizarre things like that Ukrainians wanted to exterminate Po=
lish nation(while in fact they are numerous cases in Wolyn where UPA ordere=
d Poles simply to leave).

I think we should mention that he is not reliable historian in the article =
and see if anything is sourced by him, as it would present a very POV opini=
on from non-RS source. Perhaps someone can add on this ?


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----



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=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>"it was just ethnic cleansing at most"</=
DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nothing to add here. Thanks for showing your position.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;molobus@gmai=
l.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;molobus@gmail.com&gt;<BR>=
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<BR>To: "W=
ikipedia statistics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Thursday, Aug=
ust 20, 2009, 5:38 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv2064998345>"Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, peo=
ple from former Eastern Poland, are those who suffered the most from two ev=
ils - Soviet regime and Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fight=
ing for truth for years - first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about =
Volhynian Genocide." <BR><BR>Actually I have seen mostly lies and virulent =
nationalism from that group rather then truth. Including the bizarre accusa=
tion of genocide-where in fact it was just ethnic cleansing at most. I don'=
t understand why you are shocked. Eastern units of AK were quite infiltrate=
d by Soviet agents, that isn't something unknown. I don't think there is an=
y reason why Soviets should restrict themselfs to recruiting only among the=
 AK and not reaching out to agents in civilian population.So far the suppor=
t the so called "kresowiacy" are gathering is from Putin's agents and from =
his puppet's. So far the only benefit they are making is for Russia
 and and destruction of independent Ukraine by producing lies and hate prop=
aganda against Ukrainian people.&nbsp; If you want to look for who somebody=
 works then look who earns most from his actions. I am certain though most =
are naive fools, too sentimental for their own memories about the Kresy to =
see any truth about Polish opression of Ukrainian and Belarussian people th=
at happened. I wouldn't be surprised if they were some Soviet agents left a=
mong them. Certainly the fact that those who by miracle survived Soviet are=
 screaming loudest hate propaganda against Ukrainians thus destroying Polis=
h-Ukrainian relations at the benefit of Russia seems interesting. <BR>This =
goes to Ukraine too-it seems that some of Ukrainian nationalists have been =
accused of receiving money from Moscow.<BR>Of course we Poles have to under=
stand that Ukrainians come here from the position of victims and of real Po=
lish arrogance regarding the treatment of Volhyn- were Poles were
 just 16% of population(and after colonization) and yet even today even neu=
tral scholars speak that Second Polish Republic had some "right" to Volhyn.=
 Well I can only hope the the Kresy "madness" will one day be cured from my=
 Polish brethen.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/20 piotr micula <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basi=
aipiotr@yahoo.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>Molobo, seriously it is beyond me. Kresowiacy, people from former East=
ern Poland, are those who suffered the most from two evils - Soviet regime =
and Ukrainian nationalism. These people have been fighting for truth for ye=
ars - first for truth about Katyn, now for truth about Volhynian Genocide. =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Are you suggesting that Armenian - Polish Father Isakowicz-Zaleski, wh=
o lost several members of his family, murdered by the Ukrainians in 1944 in=
 Podolia, is a Soviet/Russian agent? Are you suggesting that those who are =
fighting for rememberance and for human burial of bones of their grandparen=
ts are agents?&nbsp; These people suffered more than we can all imagine, an=
d now they are called Soviet agents. Shame. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Why is it that when a Pole mentions Volhynian Genocide, he is dubbed a=
n agent, but when a Ukrainian builds a monument to the murderes, he is not =
dubbed one?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 8/20/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;<A href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_blank=
 rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</A>&=
gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<A href=3D"http://us.mc32=
8.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dn=
ofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>S=
ubject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<BR>To: <A =
href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.=
net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.n=
et">folks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR>Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 7:02 AM
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5><BR><BR>
<DIV>Interestingly I see that Bandurist actually did insert a very puzzling=
 piece of information:<BR><I><SPAN>Initially Siemaszko </SPAN>was imprisone=
d <SPAN>by [[NKVD]] </SPAN>in [[<SPAN>Lutsk</SPAN>]], <SPAN>until </SPAN>th=
e [[<SPAN>Nazi German</SPAN>]] <SPAN>attack on the </SPAN>[[<SPAN>Soviet Un=
ion</SPAN>]] <SPAN>in June 1941. The retreating Soviet military police unit=
s routinely massacred Polish prisoners as "political enemies". Siemaszko su=
rvived</SPAN>. </I><BR><BR>To me it's interesting-for a long time I was per=
sonally interested why there never was a study on Soviet infiltration of th=
e so-called "Kresowiacy"(for example Catholic Church in Poland was studied)=
. I guess it might be due to lack of access of the Soviet archives. But log=
ic dictates that they would be the most inflitrated group due to longer his=
tory under Soviet occupation and immiediate presence of Soviets. You might =
want to know that the recent supporters of the "kresowiacy" attacks
 against Ukraine are coming from Putin supporters like Petr Hecko. Petr Hec=
ko is a separatists in Ukrainian territories of Rusins<B> who are supported=
 by Putin's Russia and handing out Russian passports to Ukrainian citizens =
in Ukrainian Carpathia region</B>. Lately <B>they directly contacted Kresow=
iacy offering them support for attacks against Ukrainians(<A href=3D"http:/=
/www.bibula.com/?p=3D12585" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.bibul=
a.com/?p=3D12585</A>).<BR><BR></B>So we should be cautious in dealings with=
 those subjects. A lot of it is not what it seems, and Russians know very w=
ell how to manipulate naive Polish nationalists.<BR><B><BR></B><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/20 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>molobus@gmail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hmm the Siemiaszko art=
icles misses that the is not considered a reliable historian and writes&nbs=
p; solely from his perspective as fighter against Ukrainians and Polish nat=
ionalists<BR><A href=3D"http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/ece/research/intermari=
um/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.sipa.columbi=
a.edu/ece/research/intermarium/vol7no1/wnuk.pdf</A><BR><BR>Plus he writes b=
izarre things like that Ukrainians wanted to exterminate Polish nation(whil=
e in fact they are numerous cases in Wolyn where UPA ordered Poles simply t=
o leave).<BR><BR>I think we should mention that he is not reliable historia=
n in the article and see if anything is sourced by him, as it would present=
 a very POV opinion from non-RS source. Perhaps someone can add on this ?<B=
R></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>-----Inline Attachment
 Follows-----
<DIV class=3Dim><BR><BR>
<DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Wikipedia statistic=
s discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>folks@wikipedom=
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o/folks" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/ma=
ilman/listinfo/folks</A><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TA=
BLE><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Wikipedia st=
atistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/co=
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ikipedia statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yaho=
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