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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:08:01 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  "Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your
	statement that the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I
	mean, it's possible but also doubtful, at least as far as the
	commanders" The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being
	researched. The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known
	research indicates that this was very extensive and widespread. I can
	look for more detailed data later but for now: [...] 
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	statement that the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I
	mean, it's possible but also doubtful, at least as far as the
	commanders" The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being
	researched. The difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known
	research indicates that this was very extensive and widespread. I can
	look for more detailed data later but for now: [...] 
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"Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that the
Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it's possible but
also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"
The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. The
difficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates tha=
t
this was very extensive and widespread.
I can look for more detailed data later but for now:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405

*W swojej ksi=B1=BFce "Miecz i tarcza komunizmu" pisze pan, =BFe sowieccy s=
zpiedzy
dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=B3a to silna infiltracja?*

*Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=EApu do sowie=
ckich
dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie jest tylko problem sowieck=
ich
dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polskiego pa=F1stwa podziemne=
go czy
AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur komunistycznych, gdzie podw=F3jni agenc=
i
dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=B6 poj=EAcie o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=
=BFemy
mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=EA represji, a tak=BFe ich skuteczno=B6=E6, zastos=
owan=B1 zaraz
po wojnie. To, =BFe polska bezpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =B3atwo "oczy=B6ci=B3=
y" teren
Polski z ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiadomo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA w jak=
i=B6 op=F3r, to
=B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=B1 skal=
=EA i by=B3y do=B6=E6
skuteczne. *

http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html
*Machcewicz =B6wietnie pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne podzia=B3y scen=
y
politycznej dezorganizowa=B3y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=B3a
infiltracja =B6rodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej stron=
y,
na czym polega=B3a zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy obozem demokrat=F3w, sanacj=
=B1 i
narodowcami - rywalizacja, kt=F3ra prowadzi=B3a do zbrodni i samos=B1d=F3w.
*
http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_o=
d_nowa.htm

*A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? *
*Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich w=
=B3adz
i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=B3ywy. Wykorzystywali to, =BFe=
 AK z
czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemie ostatecznie =
nie
podj=EA=B3o w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zgodnych z niemieckimi interesami, ale z =
sowieckimi.
Cho=E6by nieszcz=EAsna operacja "Burza" z powstaniem warszawskim na czele. =
Na
powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko jedna strona - Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 py=
tanie,
czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, a je=BFeli tak, to w jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na t=
o, =BFe Warszawa
akurat 1 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a do walki. Odpowied=BC na to pytanie
mog=B3aby si=EA okaza=E6 szokuj=B1ca. *


"They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupid Polacks did
not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."
Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn with 16=
%
of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don't even kno=
w
how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance.

 "And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole" I am a Pole not a* kresowiak
*who is more interested in dreams of owning villages of obedient
Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being under Poles or in fact were
Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in mudflats of Kresy, rather
about good of Poland. Currently I can think of no other internal group so
destructive to the interests of Poles and Polish state the *kresowiacy. *Th=
e
support they receive from Putin and the amount of hate propaganda they
generate shows who are they working for-even if they are as Lenin put it
"useful idiots".
So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to *kresowiak* if that's
what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other Poles
just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their game.
The kresowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people and
Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once
opressed or dreaming about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.


"Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughter
of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of  Katowice and 74% of
population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921, and still these cities
became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can try
to justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 84%
of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and 66% of Torun was
German. Nine years later, these cities became part of Poland. Same as in
Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well. Still, nobody
justifies the Germans."

Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to which
Poland had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no matter
how intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not Polish
but Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.


"With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the killings=
,
but actually organized them, on a large scale"
Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.

"What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets
were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for
people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what
would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?"

Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in Volhyn were
colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.




2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>

> Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.
>
> I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Poles,
> the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who
> wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or
> organization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The
> ideal was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to
> Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse =
the
> killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources
> inform us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. Th=
ey
> just came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning.
> Anyway, even if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change
> anything.
>
> What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviet=
s
> were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for
> people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wha=
t
> would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from
> their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?
>
> My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilians
> can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kill=
ing
> Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had all
> the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sovie=
t
> regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported to
> Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances.
>
> Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughte=
r
> of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of  Katowice and 74% of
> population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921, and still these cities
> became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can try
> to justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 8=
4%
> of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and 66% of Torun was
> German. Nine years later, these cities became part of Poland. Same as in
> Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well. Still, nobody
> justifies the Germans.
>
> Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the
> Germans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lan=
ds,
> and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian population to
> central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the
> discrimination of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% German=
s
> had left Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a
> justification for the events of WW2.
>
> It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any other
> nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne,
> Pawlokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in
> 1919. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused=
.
> And those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.
>
> Tymek
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

--0016e6d99ecc1a5a860471a40bd2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

&quot;Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that the
Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it&#39;s possible
but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders&quot;<br>The infiltrat=
ion of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. The difficulty is =
lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates that this was ver=
y extensive and widespread.<br>
I can look for more detailed data later but for now:<br><br><a href=3D"http=
://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405">http://www.polskiera=
dio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405</a><br><br><p><i><b>W swojej ksi=B1=
=BFce &bdquo;Miecz i tarcza komunizmu&rdquo; pisze pan, =BFe
sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=B3ali tak=BFe w jednostkach AK. Czy by=B3a to silna
infiltracja?</b></i></p>
<p><i>Tego jeszcze dok=B3adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=BF nie mamy dost=EApu do
sowieckich dokument=F3w, kt=F3re s=B1 teraz w Rosji. To nie jest tylko
problem sowieckich dzia=B3a=F1 wywiadowczych wewn=B1trz struktur polskiego
pa=F1stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=BFe wewn=B1trz struktur
komunistycznych, gdzie podw=F3jni agenci dzia=B3ali jako wtyczki NKWD.
Jakie=B6 poj=EAcie o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=BFemy mie=E6 obserwuj=B1c skal=
=EA
represji, a tak=BFe ich skuteczno=B6=E6, zastosowan=B1 zaraz po wojnie. To,=
 =BFe
polska bezpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =B3atwo &bdquo;oczy=B6ci=B3y&rdquo; teren=
 Polski z
ludzi, o kt=F3rych by=B3o wiadomo, =BFe zaanga=BFuj=B1 si=EA w jaki=B6 op=
=F3r, to
=B6wiadczy, =BFe tego typu dzia=B3ania by=B3y prowadzone na du=BF=B1 skal=
=EA i by=B3y
do=B6=E6 skuteczne. </i></p><br><a href=3D"http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop=
-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html">http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/P=
op-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html</a><br><i>Machcewicz =B6wietn=
ie pokazuje zreszt=B1, jak przedwojenne podzia=B3y sceny
politycznej dezorganizowa=B3y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=B3a
infiltracja =B6rodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej
strony, na czym polega=B3a zgubna rywalizacja mi=EAdzy obozem demokrat=F3w,
sanacj=B1 i narodowcami &ndash; rywalizacja, kt=F3ra prowadzi=B3a do zbrodn=
i i
samos=B1d=F3w.<br></i><a href=3D"http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_r=
ozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm">http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wiec=
zorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm</a><br><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">
<i><font face=3D"Arial"><b style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-=
family: Arial;">A jak wygl=B1da=B3a kwestia
infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? </span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; fo=
nt-family: Arial;">

</span></font></i></p>
<i><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial;"><font face=3D"Arial=
">Obawiam si=EA, =BFe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich =
w=B3adz
i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=B3ywy. Wykorzystywali to, =BFe=
 AK z
czasem zacz=EA=B3a skr=EAca=E6 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemie ostatecznie =
nie podj=EA=B3o
w ko=F1cu dzia=B3a=F1 zgodnych z niemieckimi interesami, ale z sowieckimi. =
Cho=E6by
nieszcz=EAsna operacja &quot;Burza&quot; z powstaniem warszawskim na czele.=
 Na
powstaniu zyska=B3a tylko jedna strona - Sowiety. Nale=BFy sobie zada=E6 py=
tanie,
czy Stalin m=F3g=B3, a je=BFeli tak, to w jaki spos=F3b, wp=B3yn=B1=E6 na t=
o, =BFe
Warszawa akurat 1 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=EA=B3a do walki. Odpowied=BC na t=
o
pytanie mog=B3aby si=EA okaza=E6 szokuj=B1ca. </font></span></i><br><br><br=
> &quot;They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupid
Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault.&quot;<br>Yes i=
t was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn with 16% of =
Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don&#39;t even kn=
ow how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance. <br>
<br>&nbsp;&quot;And I do
not believe I am talking to a Pole&quot;
<div>I am a Pole not a<i> kresowiak </i>who is more interested in dreams of=
 owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being un=
der Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in m=
udflats of Kresy, rather&nbsp; about good of Poland. Currently I can think =
of no other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Pol=
ish state the <i>kresowiacy. </i>The support they receive from Putin and th=
e amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they working for-ev=
en if they are as Lenin put it &quot;useful idiots&quot;.<br>
So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to <i>kresowiak</i> if tha=
t&#39;s what you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other=
 Poles just to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their =
game. The kresowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people a=
nd Poland is higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once o=
pressed or dreaming about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.<br>
</div><br><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&quot;Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the =
Nazi
slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp;
Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in
1921,&nbsp;and still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the
Volhynian Slaughter, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all
the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz,
84% of Grudziadz, and&nbsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years la=
ter, these
cities became part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were
in the minority as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.&quot;<br><br>=
Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to which Pola=
nd had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no matter how=
 intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not Polish but=
 Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.<br>
<br><br></div>&quot;With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only e=
ndorse the killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale&quot;<br=
>Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias=
.<br>
<br>&quot;What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that th=
e
Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the
stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any
better? Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove
the Latvians from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they
deported them to Siberia?&quot;<br><br>Different situation. Latvians were i=
n their homeland. Poles in Volhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.<br=
><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/21 piotr micula <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basiaipiotr@yahoo.co=
m</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><table border=3D"=
0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"font-family:=
 inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit;=
 font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-=
stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<div>Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.<=
/div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </div=
>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</di=
v>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Similarly, using Molobo&#39;s argumentation, we can justify the Nazi s=
laughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowic=
e and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and stil=
l these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughte=
r, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be b=
itter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&n=
bsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities becam=
e part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority=
 as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</div>

<div><br>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tymek<br></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br>

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