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Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christian Suciu <christiansuciu@yahoo.com>
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	Content preview:  MariusM and Dpotop are both good guys. Problem is, the
	former has barely edited since April 2008; the latter has just 50 edits
	since July 2008 and has told me he's very busy. So they're both
	basically inactive. I was going to say also that one thing Dahn can be
	annoying about is being overly cautious about sources. On the one hand,
	that's very good: he helped teach me how important it is to cite with
	reliable material, and now I resent it when people make stuff up. But
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	(http://www.rostonline.org/), claiming it has links to new Iron
	Guard-type groups. Even if that's so, and even if they do have an
	Orthodox nationalist bias, there aren't thousands of online sources on,
	say, the aforementionedÂ Nicolae BÄƒlan, and many of their authors are
	professors at good state universities. Or I remember once how he removed
	a source saying totally non-controversial things (about the Bucharest
	Aviators' Monument), because it was from CV Tudor's Tricolorul.Â
	Granted, I don't like Tudor, but we shouldn't be obsessive. Also, about
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	attitudes were not totallyÂ groundless. Which is not to justify, say,
	the Kishinev pogrom, but Jews often wereÂ arrogant, aloof, after money,
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	mean they literally drank Gentile blood, but I can certainly understand
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	keep apart from their societies. Also, the whole Christ-killing business
	shaded matters.*This was all pre-Holocaust. If anti-Semitism was
	unacceptable in the Western mainstream from WWII until ca. 2000 (it's
	become semi-legitimised in certain circles again), it was quite common
	prior to 1939-41, even among the upper class, in Britain, in the US, not
	to mention France or Russia. So context is important. It was far more
	usual for a Romanian to be hostile or [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] More cabal theory
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	Content preview:  MariusM and Dpotop are both good guys. Problem is, the
	former has barely edited since April 2008; the latter has just 50 edits
	since July 2008 and has told me he's very busy. So they're both
	basically inactive. I was going to say also that one thing Dahn can be
	annoying about is being overly cautious about sources. On the one hand,
	that's very good: he helped teach me how important it is to cite with
	reliable material, and now I resent it when people make stuff up. But
	he's also quick to dismiss what he doesn't like as "neo-fascist". For
	instance, he utterly rejects material from the magazine Rost
	(http://www.rostonline.org/), claiming it has links to new Iron
	Guard-type groups. Even if that's so, and even if they do have an
	Orthodox nationalist bias, there aren't thousands of online sources on,
	say, the aforementionedÂ Nicolae BÄƒlan, and many of their authors are
	professors at good state universities. Or I remember once how he removed
	a source saying totally non-controversial things (about the Bucharest
	Aviators' Monument), because it was from CV Tudor's Tricolorul.Â
	Granted, I don't like Tudor, but we shouldn't be obsessive. Also, about
	anti-Semitism in earlier generations, we should remember that:*Those
	attitudes were not totallyÂ groundless. Which is not to justify, say,
	the Kishinev pogrom, but Jews often wereÂ arrogant, aloof, after money,
	exploitative, and so on. Which doesn't justify killing them, and doesn't
	mean they literally drank Gentile blood, but I can certainly understand
	a certain reserve toward them, especially when they themselves tended to
	keep apart from their societies. Also, the whole Christ-killing business
	shaded matters.*This was all pre-Holocaust. If anti-Semitism was
	unacceptable in the Western mainstream from WWII until ca. 2000 (it's
	become semi-legitimised in certain circles again), it was quite common
	prior to 1939-41, even among the upper class, in Britain, in the US, not
	to mention France or Russia. So context is important. It was far more
	usual for a Romanian to be hostile or [...] 
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MariusM and Dpotop are both good guys. Problem is, the former has barely ed=
ited since April 2008; the latter has just 50 edits since July 2008 and has=
 told me he's very busy. So they're both basically inactive.
I was going to say also that one thing Dahn can be annoying about is being =
overly cautious about sources. On the one hand, that's very good: he helped=
 teach me how important it is to cite with reliable material, and now I res=
ent it when people make stuff up. But he's also quick to dismiss what he do=
esn't like as "neo-fascist". For instance, he utterly rejects material from=
 the magazine Rost (http://www.rostonline.org/), claiming it has links to n=
ew Iron Guard-type groups. Even if that's so, and even if they do have an O=
rthodox nationalist bias, there aren't thousands of online sources on, say,=
 the aforementioned=C2=A0Nicolae B=C4=83lan, and many of their authors are =
professors at good state universities. Or I remember once how he removed a =
source saying totally non-controversial things (about the Bucharest Aviator=
s' Monument), because it was from CV Tudor's Tricolorul.=C2=A0Granted, I do=
n't like Tudor, but we shouldn't be obsessive.
Also, about anti-Semitism in earlier generations, we should remember that:*=
Those attitudes were not totally=C2=A0groundless. Which is not to justify, =
say, the Kishinev pogrom, but Jews often were=C2=A0arrogant, aloof, after m=
oney, exploitative, and so on. Which doesn't justify killing them, and does=
n't mean they literally drank Gentile blood, but I can certainly understand=
 a certain reserve toward them, especially when they themselves tended to k=
eep apart from their societies. Also, the whole Christ-killing business sha=
ded matters.*This was all pre-Holocaust. If anti-Semitism was unacceptable =
in the Western mainstream from WWII until ca. 2000 (it's become semi-legiti=
mised in certain circles again), it was quite common prior to 1939-41, even=
 among the upper class, in Britain, in the US, not to mention France or Rus=
sia. So context is important. It was far more usual for a Romanian to be ho=
stile or neutral toward Jews than to embrace them.*While Jews were, of
 course, overwhelmingly victims in WWII, we should not forget that, in the =
Baltics, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina in 1939-41, so=
me of them were willing implementers of Stalinism. (Dahn strives to deny th=
is with regard to Bessarabia, but, justified by the anti-Semitism of the pr=
evious months and years or not, it's probably true that Jews did=C2=A0enthu=
siastically welcome the advance of Soviet tanks onto Romanian land in June =
1940, and did=C2=A0help the Soviets during that first, dreadful wave of ter=
ror and deportations.) It's a part of the war that's still the most sensiti=
ve topic of discussion (along with the eastward advance of the Axis in June=
-July 1941 and the retaking of these territories), but worth exploring in f=
ull nonetheless.
Regarding Turks, Greeks, and so on: I agree that caution is needed, and tha=
t if we are to bring in other nationalities, it should probably be limited =
to Georgians, Czechs and (provided they can cooperate) Hungarians and Slova=
ks. Maybe Todor from Bulgaria - I know him off-wiki too. But I can't really=
 trust a random Albanian or someone like that. I can trust Greeks, but Gree=
ce wasn't Communist. Still, most of our Greeks are good Orthodox, and if th=
ere is an angle, that's it. Once after I asked a Greek for a vote (on the=
=C2=A0F=C3=A2nt=C3=A2na Alb=C4=83 massacre, if anyone recalls), he sent me =
a message asking me to let him know "next time the godless attempt to rewri=
te history" (no offence to our atheist colleagues). So for instance if it's=
 a dispute about religious persecution in the USSR, we could get the Greeks=
 on board. However, most of the Putinist editors are themselves good Orthod=
ox and don't bother attacking religion.
Recall too that Azerbaijan and Armenia (unlike Georgia) have cozy relations=
 with Russia, and none of the April 9 tragedy/Gamsakhurdia/Abkhazia/Ossetia=
/NATO/Saakashvili baggage.
I believe Central Asia mostly draws (limited) interest from Western editors=
, though there have been some sporadic editors from Kazakhstan. We could pr=
obably do more on the various peoples (Romanians and Balts included). (http=
://books.google.com/books?id=3DxeXwMDZbTBoC&pg=3DPA139) I myself have writt=
en just one article on the area -=C2=A0[[Muhammetnazar Gapurow]],=C2=A0Sapa=
rmurat Niyazov's predecessor as head of the Turkmen party. Also, we could f=
ocus on the brief US-Kyrgyz alliance, and on the embarrassing human rights =
records of Karimov and Nazarbayev - being close Russian allies, what puts t=
hem in a bad light indirectly does so for Russia too. Maybe also a look at =
the sometimes-restive Russian minority in northern Kazakhstan?=0A=0A=0A    =
  
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">MariusM and Dpotop are both good guys. Proble=
m is, the former has barely edited since April 2008; the latter has just 50=
 edits since July 2008 and has told me he's very busy. So they're both basi=
cally inactive.<div><br></div><div>I was going to say also that one thing D=
ahn can be annoying about is being overly cautious about sources. On the on=
e hand, that's very good: he helped teach me how important it is to cite wi=
th reliable material, and now I resent it when people make stuff up. But he=
's also quick to dismiss what he doesn't like as "neo-fascist". For instanc=
e, he utterly rejects material from the magazine <span class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" style=3D"font-style: italic;">Rost <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-style: normal;">(</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" styl=
e=3D"font-style: normal; ">http://www.rostonline.org/), claiming it has lin=
ks to new Iron
 Guard-type groups. Even if that's so, and even if they do have an Orthodox=
 nationalist bias, there aren't thousands of online sources on, say, the af=
orementioned=C2=A0Nicolae B=C4=83lan, and many of their authors are profess=
ors at good state universities. Or I remember once how he removed a source =
saying totally non-controversial things (about the Bucharest Aviators' Monu=
ment), because it was from CV Tudor's </span>Tricolorul.</span>=C2=A0Grante=
d, I don't like Tudor, but we shouldn't be obsessive.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Also, about anti-Semitism in earlier generations, we should remember th=
at:</div><div>*Those attitudes were not <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" st=
yle=3D"font-style: italic;">totally</span>=C2=A0groundless. Which is not to=
 justify, say, the Kishinev pogrom, but Jews often <span class=3D"Apple-sty=
le-span" style=3D"font-style: italic;">were</span>=C2=A0arrogant, aloof, af=
ter money, exploitative, and so on. Which doesn't justify killing them, and=
 doesn't mean they
 literally drank Gentile blood, but I can certainly understand a certain re=
serve toward them, especially when they themselves tended to keep apart fro=
m their societies. Also, the whole Christ-killing business shaded matters.<=
/div><div>*This was all pre-Holocaust. If anti-Semitism was unacceptable in=
 the Western mainstream from WWII until ca. 2000 (it's become semi-legitimi=
sed in certain circles again), it was quite common prior to 1939-41, even a=
mong the upper class, in Britain, in the US, not to mention France or Russi=
a. So context is important. It was far more usual for a Romanian to be host=
ile or neutral toward Jews than to embrace them.</div><div>*While Jews were=
, of course, overwhelmingly victims in WWII, we should not forget that, in =
the Baltics, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina in 1939-41=
, some of them were willing implementers of Stalinism. (Dahn strives to den=
y this with regard to Bessarabia, but, justified by the
 anti-Semitism of the previous months and years or not, it's probably true =
that Jews <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: italic;">di=
d</span>=C2=A0enthusiastically welcome the advance of Soviet tanks onto Rom=
anian land in June 1940, and <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font=
-style: italic;">did</span>=C2=A0help the Soviets during that first, dreadf=
ul wave of terror and deportations.) It's a part of the war that's still th=
e most sensitive topic of discussion (along with the eastward advance of th=
e Axis in June-July 1941 and the retaking of these territories), but worth =
exploring in full nonetheless.</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding Turks, Gr=
eeks, and so on: I agree that caution is needed, and that if we are to brin=
g in other nationalities, it should probably be limited to Georgians, Czech=
s and (provided they can cooperate) Hungarians and Slovaks. Maybe Todor fro=
m Bulgaria - I know him off-wiki too. But I can't really trust a random Alb=
anian or
 someone like that. I can trust Greeks, but Greece wasn't Communist. Still,=
 most of our Greeks are good Orthodox, and if there is an angle, that's it.=
 Once after I asked a Greek for a vote (on the=C2=A0F=C3=A2nt=C3=A2na Alb=
=C4=83 massacre, if anyone recalls), he sent me a message asking me to let =
him know "next time the godless attempt to rewrite history" (no offence to =
our atheist colleagues). So for instance if it's a dispute about religious =
persecution in the USSR, we could get the Greeks on board. However, most of=
 the Putinist editors are themselves good Orthodox and don't bother attacki=
ng religion.</div><div><br></div><div>Recall too that Azerbaijan and Armeni=
a (unlike Georgia) have cozy relations with Russia, and none of the April 9=
 tragedy/Gamsakhurdia/Abkhazia/Ossetia/NATO/Saakashvili baggage.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I believe Central Asia mostly draws (limited) interest from =
Western editors, though there have been some sporadic editors from Kazakhst=
an. We
 could probably do more on the various peoples (Romanians and Balts include=
d). (http://books.google.com/books?id=3DxeXwMDZbTBoC&amp;pg=3DPA139) I myse=
lf have written just one article on the area -=C2=A0[[Muhammetnazar Gapurow=
]],=C2=A0Saparmurat Niyazov's predecessor as head of the Turkmen party. Als=
o, we could focus on the brief US-Kyrgyz alliance, and on the embarrassing =
human rights records of Karimov and Nazarbayev - being close Russian allies=
, what puts them in a bad light indirectly does so for Russia too. Maybe al=
so a look at the sometimes-restive Russian minority in northern Kazakhstan?=
</div></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      
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