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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 16:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack <jacurek@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  I'm also pro Lithuanian, don't get me wrong, the only
	reason I'm making these crazy edits is because Lokyz and especially Mr
	Dan (SON OF A B&*&%&^&$!!) "stepped on my toe" really bad. They are
	totallunreasonablele and I don't agree that you can work with them, at
	least that was my experience with both plus of coursese M.K.Jacek [...]
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Can Lokyz be reported?
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	Content preview:  I'm also pro Lithuanian, don't get me wrong, the only
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	Dan (SON OF A B&*&%&^&$!!) "stepped on my toe" really bad. They are
	totallunreasonablele and I don't agree that you can work with them, at
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I'm also pro Lithuanian, don't get me wrong, the only reason I'm making the=
se crazy edits is because Lokyz and especially Mr Dan (SON OF A B&*&%&^&$!!=
) "stepped on my toe" really bad. They are totallunreasonablele and=A0I don=
't agree that you can work with them, at least that was my experience with =
both plus of coursese M.K.Jacek



From: PetersJV@aol.com <PetersJV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Can Lokyz be reported?
To: folks@wikipedometer.net
Date: Sunday, August 16, 2009, 8:41 AM




In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rsszulga@=
gmail.com writes:
To the extent that there some truth in this, this is something that could n=
ormally be discussed and worked out. However there's basically no possible =
way to have a good faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or Dr. Dan.
First time I "met" MK was when he tried to get me blocked for a dispute he =
wasn't even involved in, simply because he realized my nationality.
But from what I know there was a lot more direct and willing collaboration =
in Lithuania than in Latvia. The other problem is that it is in fact Lokyz =
and Co. who cast this dispute in Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of Lithuan=
ians didn't collaborate and many (like my grandfather) even joined the AK. =
There's definitely plenty of good in Polish-Lithuanian relations over the y=
ears - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan who try to downplay it as much as possibl=
e and instead focus on the negatives which leads to the inevitable enmity.

Radek


I haven't found Lokyz to be completely unreasonable in the past, at least w=
hen=A0he's not feeling cornered with his back against the wall.
=A0
I count myself as both pro-Polish and pro-Lithuanian, from my perspective a=
t least both sides tend to descend into the negative side of things through=
 no direct intention to do so, such is the unfortunate nature of these disp=
utes.
=A0
At some point we have to decide what is the most important story over which=
 to argue on WP: whether we argue amongst ourselves about which Eastern Eur=
opean peoples had their Nazi collaborators and what they did in the name of=
 or in the defense against Nazism to each other, or we focus on the fact th=
at had the Nazis and Soviets not invaded, none of that would have happened.=
 Speaking of "widespread", there are specific accounts where Lithuanians ar=
e (still now) blamed for clearing the countryside of Jews while unofficial =
German correspondence (ignored) squarely states it was German commandos who=
 did the killing.
=A0
Let's not adopt the same slurs the Soviets and now Russians use against ant=
i-Soviets=A0(that is,=A0all "Nazi collaborators" were Jew-killing fascists)=
 and apply them to each other. Let's remember that people cooperated to sur=
vive, and why? Because they had already spent a year under=A0Soviet occupat=
ion and learned that to not cooperate or to ask questions was to disappear.
=A0
/Peters




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>I'm also pro Lithuanian, don't get me wr=
ong, the only reason I'm making these crazy edits is because Lokyz and espe=
cially <U>Mr Dan</U> (SON OF A B&amp;*&amp;%&amp;^&amp;$!!) "stepped on my =
toe" really bad. They are totallunreasonablele and&nbsp;I don't agree that =
you can work with them, at least that was my experience with both <SPAN>plu=
s </SPAN>of coursese M.K.</DIV><SPAN>Jac</SPAN>ek<BR>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: PetersJV@aol.com &lt;PetersJV@aol.com&gt;<B=
R>Subject: Re: [WPM] Can Lokyz be reported?<BR>To: folks@wikipedometer.net<=
BR>Date: Sunday, August 16, 2009, 8:41 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv922144861><FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 fa=
ce=3DArial>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 8/16/2009 12:24:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rssz=
ulga@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN=
-LEFT: 5px"><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=3D#000000 s=
ize=3D2 face=3DArial>To the extent that there some truth in this, this is s=
omething that could normally be discussed and worked out. However there's b=
asically no possible way to have a good faith discussion with Lokyz, MK or =
Dr. Dan.<BR>First time I "met" MK was when he tried to get me blocked for a=
 dispute he wasn't even involved in, simply because he realized my national=
ity.<BR>But from what I know there was a lot more direct and willing collab=
oration in Lithuania than in Latvia. The other problem is that it is in fac=
t Lokyz and Co. who cast this dispute in Pole vs. Lithuanian terms. Lots of=
 Lithuanians didn't collaborate and many (like my grandfather) even joined =
the AK. There's definitely plenty of good in Polish-Lithuanian relations ov=
er the years - but it's Lokyz and Dr. Dan who try to downplay it as much as
 possible and instead focus on the negatives which leads to the inevitable =
enmity.<BR><BR>Radek<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I haven't found Lokyz to be completely unreasonable in the past, at le=
ast when&nbsp;he's not feeling cornered with his back against the wall.</DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I count myself as both pro-Polish and pro-Lithuanian, from my perspect=
ive at least both sides tend to descend into the negative side of things th=
rough no direct intention to do so, such is the unfortunate nature of these=
 disputes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>At some point we have to decide what is the most important story over =
which to argue on WP: whether we argue amongst ourselves about which Easter=
n European peoples had their Nazi collaborators and what they did in the na=
me of or in the defense against Nazism to each other, or we focus on the fa=
ct that had the Nazis and Soviets not invaded, <U>none of that would have h=
appened</U>. Speaking of "widespread", there are specific accounts where Li=
thuanians are (still now) blamed for clearing the countryside of Jews while=
 unofficial German correspondence (ignored) squarely states it was German c=
ommandos who did the killing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Let's not adopt the same slurs the Soviets and now Russians use agains=
t anti-Soviets&nbsp;(that is,&nbsp;all "Nazi collaborators" were Jew-killin=
g fascists) and apply them to each other. Let's remember that people cooper=
ated to survive, and why? Because they had already spent a year under&nbsp;=
Soviet occupation and learned that to not cooperate or to ask questions was=
 to disappear.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>/Peters</DIV></FONT>
<DIV id=3D6ddbc80ed93f0f518dcdf196b07fbcfb class=3Daol_ad_footer><BR><FONT =
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial, san-serif; COLOR: black">
<HR style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 10px">
</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>_______________________________________________<BR>W=
ikipedia statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc451.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wiki=
pedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR><A href=3D"http://wikipedomet=
er.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer=
..net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></t=
able><br>=0A=0A      
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