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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 18:19:15 -0500
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From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Well, I'm not quite sure of how to respond to that.
	Radek 2009/8/2 O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca> [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
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	Content preview:  Well, I'm not quite sure of how to respond to that.
	Radek 2009/8/2 O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca> [...] 
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Well, I'm not quite sure of how to respond to that.

Radek

2009/8/2 O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca>

>
> Every nation has its own perspective on history, get used to it. I don't
> think thousands of civilian Ukrainians killed in Volhynia in reprisal
> killings by AK cared about the status of their murders' AK membership. AK
> also has innocent blood on its hands, it was the brutal time. It would be
> just as wrong to blame the whole of UPA for the atrocities in Volhynia as
> the whole AK for reprisal killings. Things happened. Bad things. But in
> spite of that, for millions of Ukrainians UPA always will be heroes, beca=
use
> they fought for the freedom of their country.
>
> Criminals killing innocents should be punished and remembered, but
> spreading blame like smearing tar and feathers will lead nowhere. It will
> remain the poisonous wound between Ukrainians and Poles forever and as
> always Russia will find use for it. Guess on whose side of this argument =
she
> is? There is enough blame to go around from all sides, unless we want to
> repeat the bitter unlearned lessons of history, it is time to let bygones=
 be
> bygones. For the sake of the future, not past.
>
> PS I wouldn't be surprised if Russia were clandestinely financing people =
in
> Poland bringing this issue over and over again. Just a guess...
>
> --- On Mon, 8/3/09, radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
> > To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> > Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 5:30 AM
> > Ugh. Sorry I can't go with this. AK
> > was NOT as murderous as UPA. There's a world of
> > difference here. The statement itself is insulting. It's
> > like comparing US cold war policy and to Soviet imperialism
> > during the cold war.
> >
> > I can perfectly understand and  will in any way support
> > the contention that Operation Vistula carried out by the
> > communist authorities of Poland was responsible for many
> > crimes against Ukrainians. I will also agree that and
> > support the notion that the policies of the Second Polish
> > Republic towards Ukrainians after Pilsudski's death and
> > on the initiative of the Endecja were repressive.
> >
> > But comparing AK to UPA is way out of the ballpark. AK
> > mostly fought the Nazis and did not carry out a genocidal
> > campaign against any ethnic group. Yes, there might have
> > been instances where individual AK commanders in the field,
> > usually after they've left AK, or were kicked out of it,
> > carried out pacification actions against civilians - and
> > even that is open to disupute - and even then it was usually
> > a response to actions carried out by UPA. Still these were
> > isolated experiences. On the other hand UPA did carry out a
> > policy of ethnic cleansing.
> >
> > Don't engage to in relativistic moral equivalence here.
> > It diminishes you.
> >
> > Keep in mind that I've been the one trying to be open
> > minded about this and let Faustian present his point of view
> > fairly.
> >
> >
> > Radek
> >
> >
> > 2009/8/2 O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca>
> >
> >
> >
> > This rant from all sides is extremely unhelpful. I
> > understand it is a sore wound with the Poles, but why do you
> > keep scratching at it over and over again? Let's agree
> > that both sides are to blame, AK was just as murderous as
> > the UPA. Weighing in and comparing atrocities is leading
> > nowhere. Is there a scale by which we can compare Massacres
> > in Volhynia to Operation Vistula or Pacifikacija? Let it go.
> > I don't see Ukrainians ranting over the last two.
> > Someone else (and most know who) will benefit from it.
> > Unfortunately, neither Ukrainians and Poles will.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hillock
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek ,
> > Piotrus, Tymek and others.
> >
> > > To: "Wikipedia
> > statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> >
> > > Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:10 AM
> >
> > > "> This is a
> > very interesting
> >
> > > observation. How about: "SS never engaged in
> >
> > > > genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them out of
> > German
> >
> > > territories"."
> >
> > >
> >
> > > In contrast to UPA German state had a clear plan how
> > to
> >
> > > exterminate
> >
> > > Polish nation. UPA plans were limited to removing
> > Polish
> >
> > > population
> >
> > > from ethnic Ukrainian territories-there were no plans
> > to
> >
> > > exterminate
> >
> > > Polish nation, To be fair, due to ideology of UPA the
> >
> > > methods involved
> >
> > > were quite brutal.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 2009/8/1 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > "UPA never engaged in genocide of Poles. It
> > simply
> >
> > > wanted them out of
> >
> > > > Ukrainian territories"
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > This is a very interesting observation. How
> >
> > > about: "SS never engaged in
> >
> > > > genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them out of
> >
> > > German territories".
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > The more I read your posts, the more shocked I
> > am.
> >
> > > Looks like you know more
> >
> > > > than the general consensus of historians. Where
> > do you
> >
> > > get that info?
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > BTW what do you understand by Ukrainian
> > territories
> >
> > > where Poles were
> >
> > > > unwanted and simply removed?
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Tymek
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > > > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >
> > > > folks@wikipedometer.net
> >
> > > > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >
> > > folks@wikipedometer.net
> >
> > > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  __________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new
> > Internet Explorer=AE 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for
> > Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> >
> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> >
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
>
>
>       __________________________________________________________________
> Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo=
!
> Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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Well, I&#39;m not quite sure of how to respond to that. <br><br>Radek<br><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/2 O. G. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:hillock@yahoo.ca">hillock@yahoo.ca</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); =
margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Every nation has its own perspective on history, get used to it. I don&#39;=
t think thousands of civilian Ukrainians killed in Volhynia in reprisal kil=
lings by AK cared about the status of their murders&#39; AK membership. AK =
also has innocent blood on its hands, it was the brutal time. It would be j=
ust as wrong to blame the whole of UPA for the atrocities in Volhynia as th=
e whole AK for reprisal killings. Things happened. Bad things. But in spite=
 of that, for millions of Ukrainians UPA always will be heroes, because the=
y fought for the freedom of their country.<br>

<br>
Criminals killing innocents should be punished and remembered, but spreadin=
g blame like smearing tar and feathers will lead nowhere. It will remain th=
e poisonous wound between Ukrainians and Poles forever and as always Russia=
 will find use for it. Guess on whose side of this argument she is? There i=
s enough blame to go around from all sides, unless we want to repeat the bi=
tter unlearned lessons of history, it is time to let bygones be bygones. Fo=
r the sake of the future, not past.<br>

<br>
PS I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if Russia were clandestinely financing peopl=
e in Poland bringing this issue over and over again. Just a guess...<br>
<br>
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">=
rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; From: radek szulga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and=
 others.<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikip=
edometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>
</div>&gt; Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 5:30 AM<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Ugh. Sorry I can&#39;t go with this.=
 AK<br>
&gt; was NOT as murderous as UPA. There&#39;s a world of<br>
&gt; difference here. The statement itself is insulting. It&#39;s<br>
&gt; like comparing US cold war policy and to Soviet imperialism<br>
&gt; during the cold war.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I can perfectly understand and=A0 will in any way support<br>
&gt; the contention that Operation Vistula carried out by the<br>
&gt; communist authorities of Poland was responsible for many<br>
&gt; crimes against Ukrainians. I will also agree that and<br>
&gt; support the notion that the policies of the Second Polish<br>
&gt; Republic towards Ukrainians after Pilsudski&#39;s death and<br>
&gt; on the initiative of the Endecja were repressive.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But comparing AK to UPA is way out of the ballpark. AK<br>
&gt; mostly fought the Nazis and did not carry out a genocidal<br>
&gt; campaign against any ethnic group. Yes, there might have<br>
&gt; been instances where individual AK commanders in the field,<br>
&gt; usually after they&#39;ve left AK, or were kicked out of it,<br>
&gt; carried out pacification actions against civilians - and<br>
&gt; even that is open to disupute - and even then it was usually<br>
&gt; a response to actions carried out by UPA. Still these were<br>
&gt; isolated experiences. On the other hand UPA did carry out a<br>
&gt; policy of ethnic cleansing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Don&#39;t engage to in relativistic moral equivalence here.<br>
&gt; It diminishes you.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Keep in mind that I&#39;ve been the one trying to be open<br>
&gt; minded about this and let Faustian present his point of view<br>
&gt; fairly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Radek<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2009/8/2 O. G. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hillock@yahoo.ca">hillock@yahoo.c=
a</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This rant from all sides is extremely unhelpful. I<br>
&gt; understand it is a sore wound with the Poles, but why do you<br>
&gt; keep scratching at it over and over again? Let&#39;s agree<br>
&gt; that both sides are to blame, AK was just as murderous as<br>
&gt; the UPA. Weighing in and comparing atrocities is leading<br>
&gt; nowhere. Is there a scale by which we can compare Massacres<br>
&gt; in Volhynia to Operation Vistula or Pacifikacija? Let it go.<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t see Ukrainians ranting over the last two.<br>
&gt; Someone else (and most know who) will benefit from it.<br>
&gt; Unfortunately, neither Ukrainians and Poles will.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hillock<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.=
com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molo=
bus@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek ,<br>
&gt; Piotrus, Tymek and others.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &quot;Wikipedia<br>
&gt; statistics&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@=
wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:10 AM<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;&gt; This is a<br>
&gt; very interesting<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; observation. How about: &quot;SS never engaged in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them out of<br>
&gt; German<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; territories&quot;.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; In contrast to UPA German state had a clear plan how<br>
&gt; to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; exterminate<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Polish nation. UPA plans were limited to removing<br>
&gt; Polish<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; population<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; from ethnic Ukrainian territories-there were no plans<br>
&gt; to<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; exterminate<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Polish nation, To be fair, due to ideology of UPA the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; methods involved<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; were quite brutal.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 2009/8/1 piotr micula &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com=
">basiaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;UPA never engaged in genocide of Poles. It<br>
&gt; simply<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; wanted them=A0out of<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Ukrainian territories&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; This is a very interesting observation.=A0How<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; about:=A0&quot;SS never engaged in<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them=A0out of<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; German territories&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The more I read your posts, the more shocked I<br>
&gt; am.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Looks like you know more<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; than the general consensus of historians. Where<br>
&gt; do you<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; get that info?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BTW what do you understand by Ukrainian<br>
&gt; territories<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; where Poles were<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; unwanted and simply removed?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Tymek<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedomet=
er.net</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo=
/folks" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo=
/folks</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.ne=
t</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folk=
s" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folk=
s</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0=A0 =A0<br>
&gt; =A0__________________________________________________________________<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new<br>
&gt; Internet Explorer=AE 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for<br>
&gt; Free! at <a href=3D"http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a>=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a>=
<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"hm"> =A0 =A0 =A0_______________________________________=
___________________________<br>
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Answers and share what you know at <a href=3D"http://ca.answers.yahoo.com" =
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