X-From_: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net Fri Aug 21 22:08:36 2009
Return-Path: <folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net>
Message-ID: <260006.17822.qm@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: PHe1zAUVM1lUEbkTQxhN_R5iJ.kFYygKGfDjJyEIBgPhImMbY8N9h68NCVrRwjz5eBYj422TCFR4KPUVXf2cm47SGlgy0EOd6E6jb3xq6zKpRIr0qdKwKnLxgXwhccNY5rqzNtuJRZqudIl0S6mLnXLJdMmnI8qhhTKE5WqpgEEoz27Y3mOIuQjCyLoT4CwH3xpG4NOJC7pNrF0AXI8YTRZUxuAeQ2j32juQDlvPlENib2IRYaY3sLByArCCbZnBcq_fXQisaf_3yk_1JjngYZF0PWLzXhUuM1UsCBwdxMmdDbUK4YU8V5ITyEfPQtb8mDG_Hau00a9G1k.GAO_ZsME6UiFKnYFg
X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/6.1.2 YahooMailWebService/0.7.338.2
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
In-Reply-To: <25890ca0908211153l4828dc45qda92b552bee0ce6e@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Spam_score: -0.6
X-Spam_score_int: -5
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
	similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  So Siemaszko was not murdered by the NKVD in 1941, and
	this is why some suspect him of cooperating with the Soviets? Well, I am
	struck by this kind of thinking. Yes, this is a very solid evidence - if
	the Soviets did not kill someone, then the survivor must be an agent.
	Therefore, Wladyslaw Anders, Michal Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski, Nikodem
	Sulik, and numerous others,Â wereÂ Soviet agents as well. Â Tymek [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (-0.6 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
	-2.6 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	0.2 DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE     RBL: Envelope sender in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST      RBL: Envelope sender in
	postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
	0.1 AWL                    AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb3 (2006-10-05) on 
	pakkun.mirky.net
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,
	DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no 
	version=3.1.7-deb3
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
X-BeenThere: folks@wikipedometer.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Id: Wikipedia statistics <folks.wikipedometer.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net>
List-Help: <mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks>,
	<mailto:folks-request@wikipedometer.net?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6897723308544051989=="
Mime-version: 1.0
Sender: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
Errors-To: folks-bounces@wikipedometer.net
X-Spam_score: -0.6
X-Spam_score_int: -5
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "pakkun.mirky.net", has
	identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
	has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
	similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
	the administrator of that system for details.
	Content preview:  So Siemaszko was not murdered by the NKVD in 1941, and
	this is why some suspect him of cooperating with the Soviets? Well, I am
	struck by this kind of thinking. Yes, this is a very solid evidence - if
	the Soviets did not kill someone, then the survivor must be an agent.
	Therefore, Wladyslaw Anders, Michal Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski, Nikodem
	Sulik, and numerous others,Â wereÂ Soviet agents as well. Â Tymek [...] 
	Content analysis details:   (-0.6 points, 5.0 required)
	pts rule name              description
	---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
	-2.6 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
	[score: 0.0000]
	0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	0.2 DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE     RBL: Envelope sender in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org
	1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST      RBL: Envelope sender in
	postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org
	0.1 AWL                    AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list

--===============6897723308544051989==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1318293392-1250885310=:17822"

--0-1318293392-1250885310=:17822
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So Siemaszko was not murdered by the NKVD in 1941, and this is why some sus=
pect him of cooperating with the Soviets? Well, I am struck by this kind of=
 thinking. Yes, this is a very solid evidence - if the Soviets did not kill=
 someone, then the survivor must be an agent. Therefore, Wladyslaw Anders, =
Michal Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski, Nikodem Sulik, and numerous others,=C2=A0we=
re=C2=A0Soviet agents as well.=20
=C2=A0
Tymek

--- On Fri, 8/21/09, radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com> wrote:


From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 1:53 PM


It's a quite long jump from what you present to the conclusion that the Vol=
hunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly) and even a bigger ju=
mp to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko himself was a Soviet =
agent - particularly since at least his daughter has also written on NKVD a=
nd communist crimes in Volhynia.

As far as the general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn't be surpr=
ising. Particularly, after operation Tempest when lots of AK units "reveale=
d" themselves to the Soviets as part of the whole "ally of our allies" worl=
d view (this is why NSZ, even though they played a far more minor role duri=
ng the German occupation, played a bigger role in the fighting with the com=
munists after the war). But I think you're jumping to conclusions here, bef=
ore the actual research can come out.

Radek



2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>


"Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement that the Volhyn=
ian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it's possible but also =
doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"
The infiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. The d=
ifficulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates that=
 this was very extensive and widespread.
I can look for more detailed data later but for now:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405


W swojej ksi=C4=85=C5=BCce =E2=80=9EMiecz i tarcza komunizmu=E2=80=9D pisze=
 pan, =C5=BCe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=C5=82ali tak=C5=BCe w jednostkach AK. =
Czy by=C5=82a to silna infiltracja?
Tego jeszcze dok=C5=82adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=C5=BC nie mamy dost=C4=99pu =
do sowieckich dokument=C3=B3w, kt=C3=B3re s=C4=85 teraz w Rosji. To nie jes=
t tylko problem sowieckich dzia=C5=82a=C5=84 wywiadowczych wewn=C4=85trz st=
ruktur polskiego pa=C5=84stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=C5=BCe wewn=C4=85=
trz struktur komunistycznych, gdzie podw=C3=B3jni agenci dzia=C5=82ali jako=
 wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=C5=9B poj=C4=99cie o rozmiarach tej akcji mo=C5=BCemy =
mie=C4=87 obserwuj=C4=85c skal=C4=99 represji, a tak=C5=BCe ich skuteczno=
=C5=9B=C4=87, zastosowan=C4=85 zaraz po wojnie. To, =C5=BCe polska bezpieka=
 i NKWD stosunkowo =C5=82atwo =E2=80=9Eoczy=C5=9Bci=C5=82y=E2=80=9D teren P=
olski z ludzi, o kt=C3=B3rych by=C5=82o wiadomo, =C5=BCe zaanga=C5=BCuj=C4=
=85 si=C4=99 w jaki=C5=9B op=C3=B3r, to =C5=9Bwiadczy, =C5=BCe tego typu dz=
ia=C5=82ania by=C5=82y prowadzone na du=C5=BC=C4=85 skal=C4=99 i by=C5=82y =
do=C5=9B=C4=87 skuteczne.=20
http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html
Machcewicz =C5=9Bwietnie pokazuje zreszt=C4=85, jak przedwojenne podzia=C5=
=82y sceny politycznej dezorganizowa=C5=82y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak p=
rzebiega=C5=82a infiltracja =C5=9Brodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad=
, a z drugiej strony, na czym polega=C5=82a zgubna rywalizacja mi=C4=99dzy =
obozem demokrat=C3=B3w, sanacj=C4=85 i narodowcami =E2=80=93 rywalizacja, k=
t=C3=B3ra prowadzi=C5=82a do zbrodni i samos=C4=85d=C3=B3w.
http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_o=
d_nowa.htm

A jak wygl=C4=85da=C5=82a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? Obawiam si=
=C4=99, =C5=BCe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szeregach polskich w=C5=
=82adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=C5=82ywy. Wykorzystywal=
i to, =C5=BCe AK z czasem zacz=C4=99=C5=82a skr=C4=99ca=C4=87 mocno w lewo.=
 Polskie podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=C4=99=C5=82o w ko=C5=84cu dzia=C5=
=82a=C5=84 zgodnych z niemieckimi interesami, ale z sowieckimi. Cho=C4=87by=
 nieszcz=C4=99sna operacja "Burza" z powstaniem warszawskim na czele. Na po=
wstaniu zyska=C5=82a tylko jedna strona - Sowiety. Nale=C5=BCy sobie zada=
=C4=87 pytanie, czy Stalin m=C3=B3g=C5=82, a je=C5=BCeli tak, to w jaki spo=
s=C3=B3b, wp=C5=82yn=C4=85=C4=87 na to, =C5=BCe Warszawa akurat 1 sierpnia =
1944 roku stan=C4=99=C5=82a do walki. Odpowied=C5=BA na to pytanie mog=C5=
=82aby si=C4=99 okaza=C4=87 szokuj=C4=85ca.=20



"They just urged people to leave their houses, and these stupid Polacks did=
 not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."
Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhyn with 16=
% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don't even k=
now how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance.=20


=C2=A0"And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole"=20
I am a Pole not a kresowiak who is more interested in dreams of owning vill=
ages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being under Poles or=
 in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in mudflats of K=
resy, rather=C2=A0 about good of Poland. Currently I can think of no other =
internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Polish state th=
e kresowiacy. The support they receive from Putin and the amount of hate pr=
opaganda they generate shows who are they working for-even if they are as L=
enin put it "useful idiots".
So yes Tymek-I do not restrict the term of Poles to kresowiak if that's wha=
t you mean. This group of people wants to take hostage all other Poles just=
 to pursuit their own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their game. The k=
resowiaks should understand that the interest of Polish people and Poland i=
s higher then the dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once opressed or =
dreaming about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.


=C2=A0

"Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughter=
 of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of=C2=A0 Katowice and 74=
% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,=C2=A0and still these =
cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we ca=
n try to=C2=A0justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. I=
n 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and=C2=A066% =
of Torun=C2=A0was German.=C2=A0Nine years later, these cities became part o=
f Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well=
. Still, nobody justifies the Germans."

Nope-since those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to which Pola=
nd had right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no matter how=
 intensive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not Polish but=
 Polonized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.



"With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the killings=
, but actually organized them, on a large scale"
Likewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.


"What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets=
 were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for p=
eople deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what w=
ould you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from thei=
r land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?"

Different situation. Latvians were in their homeland. Poles in Volhyn were =
colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.





2009/8/21 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>









Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.
=C2=A0
I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Poles, th=
e situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who wante=
d to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or organiz=
ation even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ideal wa=
s to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Palestine.=
 With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the killings=
, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform us o=
f the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just came =
to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, even i=
f they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything.=20
=C2=A0
What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets =
were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for pe=
ople deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what wo=
uld you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from their=
 land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?
=C2=A0
My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilians ca=
n be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles killing =
Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had all t=
he reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Soviet r=
egime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported to Sib=
eria. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances.=20
=C2=A0
Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughter =
of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of=C2=A0 Katowice and 74%=
 of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,=C2=A0and still these c=
ities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can=
 try to=C2=A0justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. In=
 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and=C2=A066% o=
f Torun=C2=A0was German.=C2=A0Nine years later, these cities became part of=
 Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well.=
 Still, nobody justifies the Germans.
=C2=A0
Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the German=
s only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands, and =
they gave a notice before transferring the civilian=C2=A0population to cent=
ral Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimination=
 of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left Polan=
d by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justification for=
 the events of WW2.

It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any other natio=
nality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Pawlokoma, o=
r Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919. Attacki=
ng and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And those who=
 try to do so are accomplices in crime.
=C2=A0
Tymek



_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks



_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
=0A=0A=0A      
--0-1318293392-1250885310=:17822
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>So Siemaszko was not murdered by the NKV=
D in 1941, and this is why some suspect him of cooperating with the Soviets=
? Well, I am struck by this kind of thinking. Yes, this is a very solid evi=
dence - if the Soviets did not kill someone, then the survivor must be an a=
gent. Therefore, Wladyslaw Anders, Michal Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski, Nikodem =
Sulik, and numerous others,&nbsp;were&nbsp;Soviet agents as well. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/21/09, radek szulga <I>&lt;rsszulga@gmai=
l.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: radek szulga &lt;rsszulga@gmail.com&gt;<BR>=
Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation<BR>To: "W=
ikipedia statistics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Friday, Augus=
t 21, 2009, 1:53 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv55623195>It's a quite long jump from what you present to the c=
onclusion that the Volhunian AK was acting in Soviet interests (unwittingly=
) and even a bigger jump to the implication made by Bobanni that Siemiaszko=
 himself was a Soviet agent - particularly since at least his daughter has =
also written on NKVD and communist crimes in Volhynia.<BR><BR>As far as the=
 general topic - some amount of infiltration wouldn't be surprising. Partic=
ularly, after operation Tempest when lots of AK units "revealed" themselves=
 to the Soviets as part of the whole "ally of our allies" world view (this =
is why NSZ, even though they played a far more minor role during the German=
 occupation, played a bigger role in the fighting with the communists after=
 the war). But I think you're jumping to conclusions here, before the actua=
l research can come out.<BR><BR>Radek<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 Molobo Molobo <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A hre=
f=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dmolobus@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV class=3Dim>"Molobo, just wondering, what are you basing your statement=
 that the Volhynian AK was infiltrated by Soviet agents on? I mean, it's po=
ssible but also doubtful, at least as far as the commanders"<BR></DIV>The i=
nfiltration of AK by Soviets is only recentely being researched. The diffic=
ulty is lack to Soviet archives. However known research indicates that this=
 was very extensive and widespread.<BR>I can look for more detailed data la=
ter but for now:<BR><BR><A href=3D"http://www.polskieradio.pl/historia/prin=
t.aspx?id=3D68405" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.polskieradio.p=
l/historia/print.aspx?id=3D68405</A><BR><BR>
<DIV><I><B>W swojej ksi=C4=85=C5=BCce =E2=80=9EMiecz i tarcza komunizmu=E2=
=80=9D pisze pan, =C5=BCe sowieccy szpiedzy dzia=C5=82ali tak=C5=BCe w jedn=
ostkach AK. Czy by=C5=82a to silna infiltracja?</B></I></DIV>
<DIV><I>Tego jeszcze dok=C5=82adnie nie wiemy, poniewa=C5=BC nie mamy dost=
=C4=99pu do sowieckich dokument=C3=B3w, kt=C3=B3re s=C4=85 teraz w Rosji. T=
o nie jest tylko problem sowieckich dzia=C5=82a=C5=84 wywiadowczych wewn=C4=
=85trz struktur polskiego pa=C5=84stwa podziemnego czy AK, ale tak=C5=BCe w=
ewn=C4=85trz struktur komunistycznych, gdzie podw=C3=B3jni agenci dzia=C5=
=82ali jako wtyczki NKWD. Jakie=C5=9B poj=C4=99cie o rozmiarach tej akcji m=
o=C5=BCemy mie=C4=87 obserwuj=C4=85c skal=C4=99 represji, a tak=C5=BCe ich =
skuteczno=C5=9B=C4=87, zastosowan=C4=85 zaraz po wojnie. To, =C5=BCe polska=
 bezpieka i NKWD stosunkowo =C5=82atwo =E2=80=9Eoczy=C5=9Bci=C5=82y=E2=80=
=9D teren Polski z ludzi, o kt=C3=B3rych by=C5=82o wiadomo, =C5=BCe zaanga=
=C5=BCuj=C4=85 si=C4=99 w jaki=C5=9B op=C3=B3r, to =C5=9Bwiadczy, =C5=BCe t=
ego typu dzia=C5=82ania by=C5=82y prowadzone na du=C5=BC=C4=85 skal=C4=99 i=
 by=C5=82y do=C5=9B=C4=87 skuteczne. </I></DIV><BR><A href=3D"http://www.re=
dakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-zwykly-czlowiek.html" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.redakcja.pl/Tekst/Pop-Sztuka/526151,Bohater-=
zwykly-czlowiek.html</A><BR><I>Machcewicz =C5=9Bwietnie
 pokazuje zreszt=C4=85, jak przedwojenne podzia=C5=82y sceny politycznej de=
zorganizowa=C5=82y funkcjonowanie podziemia, jak przebiega=C5=82a infiltrac=
ja =C5=9Brodowisk AK-owskich przez sowiecki wywiad, a z drugiej strony, na =
czym polega=C5=82a zgubna rywalizacja mi=C4=99dzy obozem demokrat=C3=B3w, s=
anacj=C4=85 i narodowcami =E2=80=93 rywalizacja, kt=C3=B3ra prowadzi=C5=82a=
 do zbrodni i samos=C4=85d=C3=B3w.<BR></I><A href=3D"http://www.niniwa2.cba=
.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napiszmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm" target=3D_=
blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/wieczorkiewicz_rozmowa_napis=
zmy_historie_polski_od_nowa.htm</A><BR>
<DIV><I><FONT face=3DArial><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">A jak wygl=C4=85da=C5=82a kwestia infiltracji AK przez Sowiety? </SP=
AN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></=
I></DIV><I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=
=3DArial>Obawiam si=C4=99, =C5=BCe jeszcze gorzej. Sowieccy agenci w szereg=
ach polskich w=C5=82adz i polskiej armii podziemnej mieli wielkie wp=C5=82y=
wy. Wykorzystywali to, =C5=BCe AK z czasem zacz=C4=99=C5=82a skr=C4=99ca=C4=
=87 mocno w lewo. Polskie podziemie ostatecznie nie podj=C4=99=C5=82o w ko=
=C5=84cu dzia=C5=82a=C5=84 zgodnych z niemieckimi interesami, ale z sowieck=
imi. Cho=C4=87by nieszcz=C4=99sna operacja "Burza" z powstaniem warszawskim=
 na czele. Na powstaniu zyska=C5=82a tylko jedna strona - Sowiety. Nale=C5=
=BCy sobie zada=C4=87 pytanie, czy Stalin m=C3=B3g=C5=82, a je=C5=BCeli tak=
, to w jaki spos=C3=B3b, wp=C5=82yn=C4=85=C4=87 na to, =C5=BCe Warszawa aku=
rat 1 sierpnia 1944 roku stan=C4=99=C5=82a do walki. Odpowied=C5=BA na to p=
ytanie mog=C5=82aby si=C4=99 okaza=C4=87 szokuj=C4=85ca.
 </FONT></SPAN></I><BR>
<DIV class=3Dim><BR><BR>"They just urged people to leave their houses, and =
these stupid Polacks did not want to move. Idiots, it is all their fault."<=
BR></DIV>Yes it was certainly stubborness and idiocy that AK believed Volhy=
n with 16% of Poles should remain part of Poland. And they did. Which I don=
't even know how to comment due to amount of idiocy of this stance. <BR>
<DIV class=3Dim><BR>&nbsp;"And I do not believe I am talking to a Pole" </D=
IV>
<DIV>I am a Pole not a<I> kresowiak </I>who is more interested in dreams of=
 owning villages of obedient Ukrainians(who as we all know loooved being un=
der Poles or in fact were Poles-in-denial-a typical kresowiak mindset) in m=
udflats of Kresy, rather&nbsp; about good of Poland. Currently I can think =
of no other internal group so destructive to the interests of Poles and Pol=
ish state the <I>kresowiacy. </I>The support they receive from Putin and th=
e amount of hate propaganda they generate shows who are they working for-ev=
en if they are as Lenin put it "useful idiots".<BR>So yes Tymek-I do not re=
strict the term of Poles to <I>kresowiak</I> if that's what you mean. This =
group of people wants to take hostage all other Poles just to pursuit their=
 own nationalistic dreams. I do not play their game. The kresowiaks should =
understand that the interest of Polish people and Poland is higher then the=
 dreams of getting even at Ukrainians we once opressed or dreaming
 about wooden villages in muds and swamps of Kresy.<BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dim>"Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify th=
e Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp;=
 Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;=
and still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian =
Slaughter, we can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons=
 to be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziad=
z, and&nbsp;66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these citi=
es became part of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the =
minority as well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans."<BR><BR></DIV>Nope-s=
ince those cities were Germanised and originally Polish to which Poland had=
 right, no matter how long under foreign occupation and no matter how inten=
sive Germanisation was. Likewise Lviv and Vilnius were not Polish but Polon=
ized and rightfull part of Ukraine and Lithuania.<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dim>"With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endo=
rse the killings, but actually organized them, on a large scale"<BR></DIV>L=
ikewise Germans were mass murdered in post-1945 Poland by Polish militias.
<DIV class=3Dim><BR><BR>"What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian=
 stated that the Soviets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes=
 to pack the stuff for people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD lo=
ok any better? Or what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remov=
e the Latvians from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported =
them to Siberia?"<BR><BR></DIV>Different situation. Latvians were in their =
homeland. Poles in Volhyn were colonisers in Ukrainian homeland.<BR><BR><BR=
><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/8/21 piotr micula <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dbasiaipiotr@yahoo.com" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">basi=
aipiotr@yahoo.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.<=
/DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaug=
hter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowice an=
d 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and still th=
ese cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, w=
e can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitte=
r. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&nbsp;=
66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities became pa=
rt of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as =
well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dim>_______________________________________________<BR>Wikipedi=
a statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/m=
c/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR><A hr=
ef=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D_bl=
ank rel=3Dnofollow>http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks<=
/A><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>_______________________________=
________________<BR>Wikipedia statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http=
://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" target=
=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@w=
ikipedometer.net</A><BR><A href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman=
/listinfo/folks" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://wikipedometer.net/cg=
i-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>--=
---Inline Attachment
 Follows-----<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>_______________________________________________<BR>W=
ikipedia statistics discussion list<BR><A href=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfolks@wikipedometer.net" ymailto=3D"mailto:folks@wiki=
pedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</A><BR><A href=3D"http://wikipedomet=
er.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=3D_blank>http://wikipedometer=
.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></t=
able><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      
--0-1318293392-1250885310=:17822--


--===============6897723308544051989==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks

--===============6897723308544051989==--


