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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:33:21 -0400
Message-ID: <c3b2b3db0907141333q7e4b585awf017cd7a76f8a6ba@mail.gmail.com>
From: Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	. At the end, Siebert tells me: "Hey man, I know where did you work in
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You may look at this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gulag#Zemskov.27d_data_is_a_reliable_sourse
.

At the end, Siebert tells me: "Hey man, I know where did you work in
Moscow":

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gulag&diff=242807712&oldid=242806280



On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>wrote:

> That is how it works. KGB fabricated false numbers of prisoners in Gulag by
> providing their "original documents" to researchers like Zemskov. Now, these
> numbers are cited everywhere, including "Gulag" by Applebaum who is a honest
> Western resarcher. "Siebert" promoted these KGB numbers relentlessly in WP.
>
>  Now it does not matter that
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Antonov-Ovseenko and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Shatunovskaya gave completely different
> and much greater numbers based on earlier documents from the same CPSU/KGB
> archives. The official report by Shatunovskaya has been destroyed, as far as
> I remember.  The only remaining catch is this: the number of prisoners who
> arrived to Gulag per year was close to a million (per official/Applebaum
> sources if I am not mistaken), but the total number of prisoners in Gulag
> was also ... 1-2 million per KGB data.  It is hard to imagine that the
> entire population of Gulag was renewed during every 1-2 years (although
> Applebaum seems to belive that).
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 22:04, Miacek and his crime-fighting dog <
>> miacek08@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> i agree that Siebert is a rather difficult case, exactly due to his
>>> professional approach. He is constantly POV-pushing that e.g. MRP was
>>> some inevitable step for ''buying time in order to build defences''
>>> etc. - a completely nonsensical POV, but alas supported by many
>>> Western academics.
>>
>>
>> Supported?  Consistent, perhaps, but supported?
>>
>> --
>> Andres Soolo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>
>>
>

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You may look at this discussion:<br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki=
/Talk:Gulag#Zemskov.27d_data_is_a_reliable_sourse">http://en.wikipedia.org/=
wiki/Talk:Gulag#Zemskov.27d_data_is_a_reliable_sourse</a>.<br><br>At the en=
d, Siebert tells me: &quot;Hey man, I know where did you work in Moscow&quo=
t;:<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DTalk:Gulag&amp;d=
iff=3D242807712&amp;oldid=3D242806280">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?=
title=3DTalk:Gulag&amp;diff=3D242807712&amp;oldid=3D242806280</a><br><br><b=
r><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Andrei Dombay <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:wikibiophys@gmail.com">wikibiophys@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
That is how it works. KGB fabricated false numbers of prisoners in Gulag by=
 providing their &quot;original documents&quot; to researchers like Zemskov=
. Now, these numbers are cited everywhere, including &quot;Gulag&quot; by A=
pplebaum who is a honest Western resarcher. &quot;Siebert&quot; promoted th=
ese KGB numbers relentlessly in WP. <br>

<br>=A0Now it does not matter that <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/=
Anton_Antonov-Ovseenko" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anto=
n_Antonov-Ovseenko</a> and <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Sha=
tunovskaya" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Shatunovska=
ya</a> gave completely different and much greater numbers based on earlier =
documents from the same CPSU/KGB archives. The official report by Shatunovs=
kaya has been destroyed, as far as I remember.=A0 The only remaining catch =
is this: the number of prisoners who arrived to Gulag per year was close to=
 a million (per official/Applebaum sources if I am not mistaken), but the t=
otal number of prisoners in Gulag was also ... 1-2 million per KGB data.=A0=
 It is hard to imagine that the entire population of Gulag was renewed duri=
ng every 1-2 years (although Applebaum seems to belive that). <br>

<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5=
">On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Digwuren <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">digwuren@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px sol=
id rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>=
<div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 22:04, Miacek and h=
is crime-fighting dog <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:miacek08@goog=
lemail.com" target=3D"_blank">miacek08@googlemail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
i agree that Siebert is a rather difficult case, exactly due to his<br>
professional approach. He is constantly POV-pushing that e.g. MRP was<br>
some inevitable step for &#39;&#39;buying time in order to build defences&#=
39;&#39;<br>
etc. - a completely nonsensical POV, but alas supported by many<br>
Western academics.</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Supported? =A0Cons=
istent, perhaps, but supported?</div><div><br></div></div><font color=3D"#8=
88888">-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>
</font><br></div></div><div class=3D"im">__________________________________=
_____________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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