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Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:52:31 -0400
From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
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	Content preview:  Dorin Cheptea wrote: > Obviously, I am not going to
	undermine the disussion in WP, but don't > you think it should be
	/Forced /population transfer(s)? Even the > population transfer between
	Greece and Turkey in 1923, which is nowhere > near in coercion and
	brutality to what happened after WWII, is often > adjectivized with
	"forced". It is a fact that Poles were expulsed from > Kresy, as well as
	Germans were expulsed from lands east of the > Oder-Neisse line. I am
	not talking about the initial refugees, of which > were also hundreds of
	thousands, I mean that eventually everyone was > forced to leave based
	on ethnic group. I am not saying that those > territories were
	inhabited
	only by Poles, resp. Germans. In fact, in > some situations, these were
	in minority. And it is clear that not the > locals of other ethnic
	groups were the planners of these forced > movements. We all know the
	perpetrators: Soviets and Soviet puppets. And > I am not passing any
	judgement on the historical ethnic composition of > those territories
	in
	middle ages, etc, etc. But still, expulsion is > expulsion. Personally, 
	I think "population transfer" is incorrect. At > least, the word
	"forced" has to be added. I am not so knowleadgeable in > this area, but
	beware not to add water to the wheel of the Soviet > defenders. Next
	thing they will want to call the deportations simple > population
	transfers, tourist visits to Siberia, Altai, northern > Kazakhstan, Far
	East. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Renaming to population transfer
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	Content preview:  Dorin Cheptea wrote: > Obviously, I am not going to
	undermine the disussion in WP, but don't > you think it should be
	/Forced /population transfer(s)? Even the > population transfer between
	Greece and Turkey in 1923, which is nowhere > near in coercion and
	brutality to what happened after WWII, is often > adjectivized with
	"forced". It is a fact that Poles were expulsed from > Kresy, as well as
	Germans were expulsed from lands east of the > Oder-Neisse line. I am
	not talking about the initial refugees, of which > were also hundreds of
	thousands, I mean that eventually everyone was > forced to leave based
	on ethnic group. I am not saying that those > territories were inhabited
	only by Poles, resp. Germans. In fact, in > some situations, these were
	in minority. And it is clear that not the > locals of other ethnic
	groups were the planners of these forced > movements. We all know the
	perpetrators: Soviets and Soviet puppets. And > I am not passing any
	judgement on the historical ethnic composition of > those territories in
	middle ages, etc, etc. But still, expulsion is > expulsion. Personally,
	I think "population transfer" is incorrect. At > least, the word
	"forced" has to be added. I am not so knowleadgeable in > this area, but
	beware not to add water to the wheel of the Soviet > defenders. Next
	thing they will want to call the deportations simple > population
	transfers, tourist visits to Siberia, Altai, northern > Kazakhstan, Far
	East. [...] 
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Dorin Cheptea wrote:
> Obviously, I am not going to undermine the disussion in WP, but don't 
> you think it should be /Forced /population transfer(s)? Even the 
> population transfer between Greece and Turkey in 1923, which is nowhere 
> near in coercion and brutality to what happened after WWII, is often 
> adjectivized with "forced". It is a fact that Poles were expulsed from 
> Kresy, as well as Germans were expulsed from lands east of the 
> Oder-Neisse line. I am not talking about the initial refugees, of which 
> were also hundreds of thousands, I mean that eventually everyone was 
> forced to leave based on ethnic group. I am not saying that those 
> territories were inhabited only by Poles, resp. Germans. In fact, in 
> some situations, these were in minority. And it is clear that not the 
> locals of other ethnic groups were the planners of these forced 
> movements. We all know the perpetrators: Soviets and Soviet puppets. And 
> I am not passing any judgement on the historical ethnic composition of 
> those territories in middle ages, etc, etc. But still, expulsion is 
> expulsion. Personally, I think "population transfer" is incorrect. At 
> least, the word "forced" has to be added. I am not so knowleadgeable in 
> this area, but beware not to add water to the wheel of the Soviet 
> defenders. Next thing they will want to call the deportations simple 
> population transfers, tourist visits to Siberia, Altai, northern 
> Kazakhstan, Far East.    

Well, playing the devil's advocate, the statistics do include a small
minority who moved voluntarily (didn't have to leave because they could
pass for locals).

But you are right that some could try to abuse the term "population
transfer" to denote other events. Perhaps "forced" is indeed a
reasonable suggestion - propose this on talk (with most of your above
argument) and let's see what others think.


-- 
Piotr Konieczny

"The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
theory."


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