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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:32:26 -0400
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From: Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  First of all, they do not care much about Poland -
	that's one answer. They care only about content that is really damaging
	for the top - Putin and his corporation. And they do control such
	content in WP (it would take some time to elaborate). Another their
	problem is the openness of WP: any open massive attack would be too
	obvious. There are users (like 173 and M.) who censored the entire
	Soviet history. I believe they currently use foot soldiers (el, R, B, O)
	and "generals" (you can guess who they are). You possibly did not
	notice, but we have a series of people who protect certain WP pages or
	attack certain users: Vlad - M.- R+O+B (Ellol stays forever) Their
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Attack on Russavia?
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	Content preview:  First of all, they do not care much about Poland -
	that's one answer. They care only about content that is really damaging
	for the top - Putin and his corporation. And they do control such
	content in WP (it would take some time to elaborate). Another their
	problem is the openness of WP: any open massive attack would be too
	obvious. There are users (like 173 and M.) who censored the entire
	Soviet history. I believe they currently use foot soldiers (el, R, B, O)
	and "generals" (you can guess who they are). You possibly did not
	notice, but we have a series of people who protect certain WP pages or
	attack certain users: Vlad - M.- R+O+B (Ellol stays forever) Their
	number is growing, and they are winning THEIR area (which does not
	include Poland). [...] 
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First of all, they do not care much about Poland - that's one answer. They
care only about content that is really damaging for the top - Putin and his
corporation. And they  do control such content in WP (it would take some
time to elaborate). Another their problem is the openness of WP: any open
massive attack would be  too obvious.  There are users (like 173 and M.) who
censored the entire Soviet history. I believe they currently use  foot
soldiers (el, R, B, O) and  "generals"  (you can  guess who they are). You
possibly did not notice, but we have a series of people who protect certain
WP pages or attack certain users: Vlad - M.-  R+O+B (Ellol stays forever)
Their number is growing, and they are winning THEIR area (which does not
include Poland).

I pointedly made this edit a few days ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn#KGB_operations_against_Solzhenitsyn

You were talking about propaganda at home and abroad. Why on the Earth they
would make
these operations when Solzhenytsyn was already ABROAD? Because they care a
lot
about their perception on the West. And that was during Cold War. Right now
the propaganda at the West this is even more important for them : their
business (billions) depend on it. Would you deal with a business partner who
blows  their own citizens? Of course Western government know about the FSB
involvement, but general public do not. And if they do, the perception can
change.

This is all too general. There are certainly more interesting questions: how
they successfully manipulate certain Western political scientists (members
of Valday Club and many others) and what propaganda myths they are planting
and why. Unfortunately, I do not have time to
debate that.

Andrei


On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> wrote:

> Andrei Dombay wrote:
> > Yes, I think that is exactly what had happened. However, I still believe
> > that there is a Russian state propaganda team in WP, and this team has a
> > direct order not to allow the MOST damaging information to appear on the
> > internet, and that critical information is Russian apartment bombings
> > conducted by the FSB (and also Litvinenko and other related things).
> >
> > Watch  what will happen.
>
> I wonder. I am sure that Russia could easily afford to swamp us with
> editors - they don't need many, just a few would be enough. The fact
> that we are dealing with on average one to three POV-pushers suggests to
> me that they we are dealing with unorganized Russian nationalists, with
> little connection to the government. Russavia's success in the
> kremlin.ru license issue can be explained by unofficial connections, or
> plain luck, too.
>
> In other words, if they are out to get us, they are doing a piss-poor
> job, and I respect Russian intelligence/propaganda machine enough to
> know that it can do much better. The fact that it isn't suggest to me
> that it is simply not involved.
>
> Ockham's razor, my friends.
>
>
> --
> Piotr Konieczny
>
> "The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in
> theory."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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First of all, they do not care much about Poland - that&#39;s one answer. T=
hey care only about content that is really damaging for the top - Putin and=
 his corporation. And they=A0 do control such content in WP (it would take =
some time to elaborate).  Another their problem is the openness of WP: any =
open massive attack would be=A0 too obvious.=A0 There are users (like 173 a=
nd M.) who censored the entire Soviet history. I believe they currently use=
=A0 foot soldiers (el, R, B, O) and=A0 &quot;generals&quot;=A0  (you can=A0=
 guess who they are). You possibly did not notice, but we have a series of =
people who protect certain WP pages or attack certain users: Vlad - M.-=A0 =
R+O+B (Ellol stays forever) Their number is growing, and they are winning T=
HEIR area (which does not include Poland). <br>
<br>I pointedly made this edit a few days ago <br><a href=3D"http://en.wiki=
pedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn#KGB_operations_against_Solzhenitsyn">=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn#KGB_operations_against_=
Solzhenitsyn</a><br>
<br>You were talking about propaganda at home and abroad. Why on the Earth =
they would make<br>these operations when Solzhenytsyn was already ABROAD? B=
ecause they care a lot<br>about their perception on the West. And that was =
during Cold War. Right now the propaganda at the West this is even more imp=
ortant for them : their business (billions) depend on it. Would you deal wi=
th a business partner who blows=A0 their own citizens? Of course Western go=
vernment know about the FSB involvement, but general public do not. And if =
they do, the perception can change.<br>
<br>This is all too general. There are certainly more interesting questions=
: how they successfully manipulate certain Western political scientists (me=
mbers of Valday Club and many others) and what propaganda myths they are pl=
anting and why. Unfortunately, I do not have time to<br>
debate that.=A0  <br><br>Andrei <br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:49 AM, Piotr Konieczny <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;piokon@p=
ost.pl&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-l=
eft: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">Andrei Dombay wrote:<br>
&gt; Yes, I think that is exactly what had happened. However, I still belie=
ve<br>
&gt; that there is a Russian state propaganda team in WP, and this team has=
 a<br>
&gt; direct order not to allow the MOST damaging information to appear on t=
he<br>
&gt; internet, and that critical information is Russian apartment bombings<=
br>
&gt; conducted by the FSB (and also Litvinenko and other related things).<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Watch =A0what will happen.<br>
<br>
</div>I wonder. I am sure that Russia could easily afford to swamp us with<=
br>
editors - they don&#39;t need many, just a few would be enough. The fact<br=
>
that we are dealing with on average one to three POV-pushers suggests to<br=
>
me that they we are dealing with unorganized Russian nationalists, with<br>
little connection to the government. Russavia&#39;s success in the<br>
<a href=3D"http://kremlin.ru" target=3D"_blank">kremlin.ru</a> license issu=
e can be explained by unofficial connections, or<br>
plain luck, too.<br>
<br>
In other words, if they are out to get us, they are doing a piss-poor<br>
job, and I respect Russian intelligence/propaganda machine enough to<br>
know that it can do much better. The fact that it isn&#39;t suggest to me<b=
r>
that it is simply not involved.<br>
<br>
Ockham&#39;s razor, my friends.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Piotr Konieczny<br>
<br>
&quot;The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in=
<br>
theory.&quot;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">Wikipedia statistics discussion lis=
t<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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