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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:53:51 -0400
From: Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>
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	Content preview:  piotr micula wrote: > Molobo,
	with all respect I have to
	disagree here. I do not really > understand why writing about Lviv and
	its very rich Polish history makes > one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv
	and Vilnius were one of 5 major > centers of Polish culture (together
	with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Polish nationalism (was More cabal theory)
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	Content preview:  piotr micula wrote: > Molobo, with all respect I have to
	disagree here. I do not really > understand why writing about Lviv and
	its very rich Polish history makes > one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv
	and Vilnius were one of 5 major > centers of Polish culture (together
	with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). [...] 
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piotr micula wrote:
> Molobo, with all respect I have to disagree here. I do not really 
> understand why writing about Lviv and its very rich Polish history makes 
> one a nationalist. Before WW2, Lviv and Vilnius were one of 5 major 
> centers of Polish culture (together with Krakow, Warsaw and Poznan). 

I think Molobo meant writing about Kresy and claiming they should be 
Polish again, or to a lesser extent, trying to deny that they had 
non-Polish significant minorities/majorities (kind of like our 
Lithuanian "friends" ignoring the fact that pre-WWII Wilno had 2% 
Lithuanians).

Those issues nicely show the problem of radicalization/poloarization. 
How Polish was Szczecin? Not very, and we can admit it - but 
Gdansk/Danzig and Silesia have quite a mixed history. Yet when you get 
extremist - be it Pole insisting that Szczecin was Polish, or German who 
sees Danzig as 100% German forever - others tend not only to disagree 
with them but to slowly take a more extremist stance (if you say that 
Danzig was German forever, maybe I will expand the Szczecin Polish 
history and claim that Pomerania was Polish, without any caveats, just 
to annoy you... hence the will of reasonable editors to compromise and 
admit that history was gray evaporates, accusations of ethnic based 
camps fly, those camps form due to those accusations (just like our 
cabal) and we enter a vicious spiral...).

> Also, another point I disagree are crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. 
> Seems like it is OK to describe German or Soviet atrocities, but 
> describing Ukrainian atrocities is politically incorrect. This is not 
> right, those events should be described, and I have a very strong 
> opinion on it. Everybody knows about Lidice (340 victims) or Oradour 
> (640 victims), but nobody knows about Ostrowki/Wola Ostrowiecka, where 
> more than 1000 Poles were murdered by axes in one day. Events like this 
> have to be described, and writing about them does not make one a 
> nationalist.

I haven't heard anything about this being politically incorrect, the 
problem is more that it is under researched.

Still, I have to wonder if from a Ukrainian perspective, Polish editors 
writing about those crimes are not as annoying as for Poles, MORDOOR 
writing about yet another pogrom in Poland. When descendants of victims 
write articles, there is always the feeling that they are attacking the 
perpetrators... yet they are also more interested in those issues than 
the perpetrators. If the editors on both side are reasonably calm, 
neutral and willing to discuss the POV of both sides, there are few 
problems (as, for some reasons, thankfully, seems to be the case of 
Polish-Ukrainian history). To often, however, we have to deal with "true 
believers", radicalization and resulting mess.


-- 
Piotr Konieczny

"The problem about Wikipedia is, that it just works in reality, not in 
theory."

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