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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:24:21 -0400
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From: Andrei Dombay <wikibiophys@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: In fact Molobo can return tomorrow under a different
	nick and edit something on entirely different subjects, make "gnomish"
	technical edits, and so on. That's the only way. But he can hardly do
	that, just as almost any other person who used sockpuppets - for obvious
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Subject: Re: [WPM] [WMP] Molobo ban
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	Content preview:  In fact Molobo can return tomorrow under a different
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	technical edits, and so on. That's the only way. But he can hardly do
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In fact Molobo can return tomorrow under a different nick and edit something
on entirely different subjects, make "gnomish" technical edits, and so on.
That's the only way. But he can hardly do that,  just as almost any other
person who used sockpuppets - for obvious reasons.

It is possible to use someone as a proxy to copy-paste new articles or make
large changes in existing articles...  I did such proxy editing for another
person a couple of times (on a subject I am more or less familiar with). But
if I did this more often, such things would probably be detected.

 One could look at this classic SPI investigation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Giovanni33/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_Merzbow

It is very difficult to hide your identity after making a large number of
edits.


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:51 PM, radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com> wrote:

> A lot of this comes just from the fact that the sock puppet always
> can't help themselves and end up being very topic specific. At the end
> of the day the whole content analysis thing is just sloppily done
> regression analysis (actually seeing Avi involved in this whole thing,
> and his comments about pasting stuff into excel but then finding a
> better method, makes me wonder if regression is actually the tool that
> is used by the clerks to make their decisions - if so, that's sort of
> sad/bad) and the way to beat that is to throw in lots of noise into
> the data so that no correlation comes out significant. And that means
> just taking the time to edit completely random articles totally
> unrelated to the sock master's area of interest. Basically something
> like, every other day clicking the "random article" link, taking
> whatever shows up, doing a quick web/google books search on it and
> making even a minor edit. It's extra work but no one said sock
> puppeting is easy.
> What's harder to hide (and I think this is what clinched the case
> against Molobo) is the temporal correlations - in Molobo's case the
> fact that his and Gwinn's edits were always hours apart (and I think
> here the secret evidence basically just suggested some kind of
> home/work split). That's where a sock-buddy can help as both the
> master and the puppet can edit at the same time. Too much of this can
> probably get suspicious too though.
>
> Radek
>
>
> 2009/6/1 Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl>:
> >
> >> Which means that either a proxy is needed, or the behaviour must be such
> >> that a technical checkuser will never raise.  Or preferrably, both.
> >
> > We have to assume that a checkuser will happen - Murphy's Law...
> >
> >
> > --
> > Prokonsul Piotrus aka Piotr Konieczny       |||____  __ __
> >                                       I=I====__|_|I__I=>
> > "Lennier, get us the hell out of here."     |||
> > "Initiating 'getting the hell out of here' maneuver."
> >  -- Ivanova and Lennier in Babylon 5:"The Hour of the Wolf"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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In fact Molobo can return tomorrow under a different nick and edit somethin=
g on entirely different subjects, make &quot;gnomish&quot; technical edits,=
 and so on. That&#39;s the only way. But he can hardly do that,=A0 just as =
almost any other person who used sockpuppets - for obvious reasons.=A0 <br>
<br>It is possible to use someone as a proxy to copy-paste new articles or =
make large changes in existing articles...=A0 I did such proxy editing for =
another person a couple of times (on a subject I am more or less familiar w=
ith). But if I did this more often, such things would probably be detected.=
=A0 <br>
<br>=A0One could look at this classic SPI investigation:<br><br><a href=3D"=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Giovanni33/=
Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_Merzbow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe=
dia:Requests_for_arbitration/Giovanni33/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_Merz=
bow</a><br>
<br>It is very difficult to hide your identity after making a large number =
of edits.<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:51=
 PM, radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.co=
m">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">A lot of this com=
es just from the fact that the sock puppet always<br>
can&#39;t help themselves and end up being very topic specific. At the end<=
br>
of the day the whole content analysis thing is just sloppily done<br>
regression analysis (actually seeing Avi involved in this whole thing,<br>
and his comments about pasting stuff into excel but then finding a<br>
better method, makes me wonder if regression is actually the tool that<br>
is used by the clerks to make their decisions - if so, that&#39;s sort of<b=
r>
sad/bad) and the way to beat that is to throw in lots of noise into<br>
the data so that no correlation comes out significant. And that means<br>
just taking the time to edit completely random articles totally<br>
unrelated to the sock master&#39;s area of interest. Basically something<br=
>
like, every other day clicking the &quot;random article&quot; link, taking<=
br>
whatever shows up, doing a quick web/google books search on it and<br>
making even a minor edit. It&#39;s extra work but no one said sock<br>
puppeting is easy.<br>
What&#39;s harder to hide (and I think this is what clinched the case<br>
against Molobo) is the temporal correlations - in Molobo&#39;s case the<br>
fact that his and Gwinn&#39;s edits were always hours apart (and I think<br=
>
here the secret evidence basically just suggested some kind of<br>
home/work split). That&#39;s where a sock-buddy can help as both the<br>
master and the puppet can edit at the same time. Too much of this can<br>
probably get suspicious too though.<br>
<br>
Radek<br>
<br>
<br>
2009/6/1 Piotr Konieczny &lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;:<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Which means that either a proxy is needed, or the behaviour must b=
e such<br>
&gt;&gt; that a technical checkuser will never raise. =A0Or preferrably, bo=
th.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We have to assume that a checkuser will happen - Murphy&#39;s Law...<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Prokonsul Piotrus aka Piotr Konieczny =A0 =A0 =A0 |||____ =A0__ __<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 I=3DI=3D=3D=3D=3D__|_|I__I=3D&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;Lennier, get us the hell out of here.&quot; =A0 =A0 |||<br>
&gt; &quot;Initiating &#39;getting the hell out of here&#39; maneuver.&quot=
;<br>
&gt; =A0-- Ivanova and Lennier in Babylon 5:&quot;The Hour of the Wolf&quot=
;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a>=
<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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