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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Thanks Peters for your interesting comment,
	it always is
	appreciated. I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid
	of the Poles, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the
	interbellum, who wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that
	no Polish party or organization even suggested mass murder of Jewish
	minority of Poland. The ideal was to move them somewhere out of the
	country, most preferrably to Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is
	that they did not only endorse the killings, but actually organized
	them, on a large scale. And no sources inform us of the Ukrainians
	telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just came to the
	villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, even if
	they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. What
	would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets
	were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for
	people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or
	what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians
	from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to
	Siberia? My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of
	civilians can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or
	Poles killing Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of
	Jedwabne had all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively
	cooperated with Soviet regime, and their cooperation resulted in
	thousands of Poles deported to Siberia. But this is not an excuse.
	Never, under no circumstances. Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, 
	we can justify the Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of
	population of Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for
	Germany in 1921, and still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo
	justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans.
	They had all the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of
	Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and 66% of [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Siemaszo/Kresowiacy/Putin/Russian manipulation
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	Content preview:  Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is
	appreciated. I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid
	of the Poles, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the
	interbellum, who wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that
	no Polish party or organization even suggested mass murder of Jewish
	minority of Poland. The ideal was to move them somewhere out of the
	country, most preferrably to Palestine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is
	that they did not only endorse the killings, but actually organized
	them, on a large scale. And no sources inform us of the Ukrainians
	telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just came to the
	villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, even if
	they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. What
	would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets
	were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for
	people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or
	what would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians
	from their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to
	Siberia? My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of
	civilians can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or
	Poles killing Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of
	Jedwabne had all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively
	cooperated with Soviet regime, and their cooperation resulted in
	thousands of Poles deported to Siberia. But this is not an excuse.
	Never, under no circumstances. Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation,
	we can justify the Nazi slaughter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of
	population of Katowice and 74% of population of Chorzow voted for
	Germany in 1921, and still these cities became Polish. Since Molobo
	justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can try to justify the Germans.
	They had all the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 84% of the population of
	Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and 66% of [...] 
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Thanks Peters for your interesting comment, it always is appreciated.
=A0
I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Poles, th=
e situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who wante=
d to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or organiz=
ation even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ideal wa=
s to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Palestine.=
 With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the killings=
, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform us o=
f the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just came =
to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, even i=
f they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything.=20
=A0
What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Soviets =
were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff for pe=
ople deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or what wo=
uld you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from their=
 land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?
=A0
My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilians ca=
n be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles killing =
Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had all t=
he reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Soviet r=
egime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported to Sib=
eria. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances.=20
=A0
Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaughter =
of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of=A0 Katowice and 74% of=
 population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,=A0and still these cities =
became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, we can try t=
o=A0justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitter. In 1910, 84=
% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and=A066% of Torun=A0wa=
s German.=A0Nine years later, these cities became part of Poland. Same as i=
n Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as well. Still, nobody jus=
tifies the Germans.
=A0
Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the German=
s only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands, and =
they gave a notice before transferring the civilian=A0population to central=
 Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimination of=
 German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left Poland b=
y 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justification for th=
e events of WW2.

It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any other natio=
nality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Pawlokoma, o=
r Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919. Attacki=
ng and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And those who=
 try to do so are accomplices in crime.
=A0
Tymek
=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Thanks Peters for your interesting comme=
nt, it always is appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I surely understand those Ukrainians who wanted to get rid of the Pole=
s, the situation was similar to the numerous Poles in the interbellum, who =
wanted to get rid of the Jews. The difference is that no Polish party or or=
ganization even suggested mass murder of Jewish minority of Poland. The ide=
al was to move them somewhere out of the country, most preferrably to Pales=
tine. With the OUN/UIA, the thing is that they did not only endorse the kil=
lings, but actually organized them, on a large scale. And no sources inform=
 us of the Ukrainians telling the Poles in advance to move away. They just =
came to the villages and began the slaughter without any warning. Anyway, e=
ven if they had warned the Poles, it does not really change anything. </DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What would you, a Latvian, say, if another Latvian stated that the Sov=
iets were not so bad after all, as they gave 30 minutes to pack the stuff f=
or people deported to Siberia? Does it make the NKVD look any better? Or wh=
at would you say that the Russians only wanted to remove the Latvians from =
their land (say, Daugavpilis/Dvinsk), so they deported them to Siberia?</DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My stance is very clear. Under no circumstances mass murder of civilia=
ns can be excused. Whether it is the Ukrainians killing Poles, or Poles kil=
ling Jews in Jedwabne. Sure, Polish population of the area of Jedwabne had =
all the reasons to hate the Jews, as they very actively cooperated with Sov=
iet regime, and their cooperation resulted in thousands of Poles deported t=
o Siberia. But this is not an excuse. Never, under no circumstances. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Similarly, using Molobo's argumentation, we can justify the Nazi slaug=
hter of Poles during WW2. After all, 85% of population of&nbsp; Katowice an=
d 74% of population of Chorzow voted for Germany in 1921,&nbsp;and still th=
ese cities became Polish. Since Molobo justifies the Volhynian Slaughter, w=
e can try to&nbsp;justify the Germans. They had all the reasons to be bitte=
r. In 1910, 84% of the population of Bydgoszcz, 84% of Grudziadz, and&nbsp;=
66% of Torun&nbsp;was German.&nbsp;Nine years later, these cities became pa=
rt of Poland. Same as in Volhynia, where the Poles were in the minority as =
well. Still, nobody justifies the Germans.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would you, Molobo, explain Nazi crimes during WW2 by saying that the G=
ermans only wanted to remove Poles from what they regarded as German lands,=
 and they gave a notice before transferring the civilian&nbsp;population to=
 central Poland (General Government)? During the interbellum, the discrimin=
ation of German minority of Poland was so severe that 85% Germans had left =
Poland by 1926 (Niall Ferguson). Yet, no German uses this as a justificatio=
n for the events of WW2.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>It is obvious that the Poles are not in any way better than any ot=
her nationality. I know it, and I do not find any excuses for Jedwabne, Paw=
lokoma, or Polish mobs attacking the Germans in Ostrow Wielkopolski in 1919=
. Attacking and murdering of civilian population can never be excused. And =
those who try to do so are accomplices in crime.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tymek<BR></DIV></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A      
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