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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 17:30:43 -0500
Message-ID: <25890ca0908021530l49be9ee4sd8c2afbe171c82f9@mail.gmail.com>
From: radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview: Ugh. Sorry I can't go with this. AK was NOT as
	murderous
	as UPA. There's a world of difference here. The statement itself is
	insulting. It's like comparing US cold war policy and to Soviet
	imperialism during the cold war. I can perfectly understand and will in
	any way support the contention that Operation Vistula carried out by
	the
	communist authorities of Poland was responsible for many crimes against
	Ukrainians. I will also agree that and support the notion that the
	policies of the Second Polish Republic towards Ukrainians after
	Pilsudski's death and on the initiative of the Endecja were repressive.
	But comparing AK to UPA is way out of the ballpark. AK mostly fought
	the
	Nazis and did not carry out a genocidal campaign against any ethnic
	group. Yes, there might have been instances where individual AK
	commanders in the field, usually after they've left AK, or were kicked
	out of it, carried out pacification actions against civilians - and even
	that is open to disupute - and even then it was usually a response to
	actions carried out by UPA. Still these were isolated experiences. On
	the other hand UPA did carry out a policy of ethnic cleansing. Don't
	engage to in relativistic moral equivalence here. It diminishes you.
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Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
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	Content preview:  Ugh. Sorry I can't go with this. AK was NOT as murderous
	as UPA. There's a world of difference here. The statement itself is
	insulting. It's like comparing US cold war policy and to Soviet
	imperialism during the cold war. I can perfectly understand and will in
	any way support the contention that Operation Vistula carried out by the
	communist authorities of Poland was responsible for many crimes against
	Ukrainians. I will also agree that and support the notion that the
	policies of the Second Polish Republic towards Ukrainians after
	Pilsudski's death and on the initiative of the Endecja were repressive.
	But comparing AK to UPA is way out of the ballpark. AK mostly fought the
	Nazis and did not carry out a genocidal campaign against any ethnic
	group. Yes, there might have been instances where individual AK
	commanders in the field, usually after they've left AK, or were kicked
	out of it, carried out pacification actions against civilians - and even
	that is open to disupute - and even then it was usually a response to
	actions carried out by UPA. Still these were isolated experiences. On
	the other hand UPA did carry out a policy of ethnic cleansing. Don't
	engage to in relativistic moral equivalence here. It diminishes you.
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Ugh. Sorry I can't go with this. AK was NOT as murderous as UPA. There's a
world of difference here. The statement itself is insulting. It's like
comparing US cold war policy and to Soviet imperialism during the cold war.
I can perfectly understand and  will in any way support the contention that
Operation Vistula carried out by the communist authorities of Poland was
responsible for many crimes against Ukrainians. I will also agree that and
support the notion that the policies of the Second Polish Republic towards
Ukrainians after Pilsudski's death and on the initiative of the Endecja wer=
e
repressive.
But comparing AK to UPA is way out of the ballpark. AK mostly fought the
Nazis and did not carry out a genocidal campaign against any ethnic group.
Yes, there might have been instances where individual AK commanders in the
field, usually after they've left AK, or were kicked out of it, carried out
pacification actions against civilians - and even that is open to disupute =
-
and even then it was usually a response to actions carried out by UPA. Stil=
l
these were isolated experiences. On the other hand UPA did carry out a
policy of ethnic cleansing.
Don't engage to in relativistic moral equivalence here. It diminishes you.

Keep in mind that I've been the one trying to be open minded about this and
let Faustian present his point of view fairly.

Radek


2009/8/2 O. G. <hillock@yahoo.ca>

>
> This rant from all sides is extremely unhelpful. I understand it is a sor=
e
> wound with the Poles, but why do you keep scratching at it over and over
> again? Let's agree that both sides are to blame, AK was just as murderous=
 as
> the UPA. Weighing in and comparing atrocities is leading nowhere. Is ther=
e a
> scale by which we can compare Massacres in Volhynia to Operation Vistula =
or
> Pacifikacija? Let it go. I don't see Ukrainians ranting over the last two=
.
> Someone else (and most know who) will benefit from it. Unfortunately,
> neither Ukrainians and Poles will.
>
> Hillock
>
> --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
> > To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
> > Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:10 AM
> > "> This is a very interesting
> > observation. How about: "SS never engaged in
> > > genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them out of German
> > territories"."
> >
> > In contrast to UPA German state had a clear plan how to
> > exterminate
> > Polish nation. UPA plans were limited to removing Polish
> > population
> > from ethnic Ukrainian territories-there were no plans to
> > exterminate
> > Polish nation, To be fair, due to ideology of UPA the
> > methods involved
> > were quite brutal.
> >
> > 2009/8/1 piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>:
> > >
> > >
> > > "UPA never engaged in genocide of Poles. It simply
> > wanted them out of
> > > Ukrainian territories"
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting observation. How
> > about: "SS never engaged in
> > > genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them out of
> > German territories".
> > >
> > > The more I read your posts, the more shocked I am.
> > Looks like you know more
> > > than the general consensus of historians. Where do you
> > get that info?
> > >
> > > BTW what do you understand by Ukrainian territories
> > where Poles were
> > > unwanted and simply removed?
> > >
> > > Tymek
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > > folks@wikipedometer.net
> > > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> > folks@wikipedometer.net
> > http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
> >
>
>
>       __________________________________________________________________
> Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet
> Explorer=AE 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at
> http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>

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Ugh. Sorry I can&#39;t go with this. AK was NOT as murderous as UPA. There&=
#39;s a world of difference here. The statement itself is insulting. It&#39=
;s like comparing US cold war policy and to Soviet imperialism during the c=
old war. <br>
I can perfectly understand and=A0 will in any way support the contention th=
at Operation Vistula carried out by the communist authorities of Poland was=
 responsible for many crimes against Ukrainians. I will also agree that and=
 support the notion that the policies of the Second Polish Republic towards=
 Ukrainians after Pilsudski&#39;s death and on the initiative of the Endecj=
a were repressive.<br>
But comparing AK to UPA is way out of the ballpark. AK mostly fought the Na=
zis and did not carry out a genocidal campaign against any ethnic group. Ye=
s, there might have been instances where individual AK commanders in the fi=
eld, usually after they&#39;ve left AK, or were kicked out of it, carried o=
ut pacification actions against civilians - and even that is open to disupu=
te - and even then it was usually a response to actions carried out by UPA.=
 Still these were isolated experiences. On the other hand UPA did carry out=
 a policy of ethnic cleansing. <br>
Don&#39;t engage to in relativistic moral equivalence here. It diminishes y=
ou. <br><br>Keep in mind that I&#39;ve been the one trying to be open minde=
d about this and let Faustian present his point of view fairly. <br><br>
Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/8/2 O. G. <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hillock@yahoo.ca">hillock@yahoo.ca</a>&gt;</span><b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204=
, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
This rant from all sides is extremely unhelpful. I understand it is a sore =
wound with the Poles, but why do you keep scratching at it over and over ag=
ain? Let&#39;s agree that both sides are to blame, AK was just as murderous=
 as the UPA. Weighing in and comparing atrocities is leading nowhere. Is th=
ere a scale by which we can compare Massacres in Volhynia to Operation Vist=
ula or Pacifikacija? Let it go. I don&#39;t see Ukrainians ranting over the=
 last two. Someone else (and most know who) will benefit from it. Unfortuna=
tely, neither Ukrainians and Poles will.<br>

<br>
Hillock<br>
<br>
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">=
molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; From: Molobo Molobo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and=
 others.<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; To: &quot;Wikipedia statistics&quot; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>&gt;<br>
</div>&gt; Received: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:10 AM<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; &quot;&gt; This is a very interestin=
g<br>
&gt; observation. How about: &quot;SS never engaged in<br>
&gt; &gt; genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them out of German<br>
&gt; territories&quot;.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In contrast to UPA German state had a clear plan how to<br>
&gt; exterminate<br>
&gt; Polish nation. UPA plans were limited to removing Polish<br>
&gt; population<br>
&gt; from ethnic Ukrainian territories-there were no plans to<br>
&gt; exterminate<br>
&gt; Polish nation, To be fair, due to ideology of UPA the<br>
&gt; methods involved<br>
&gt; were quite brutal.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2009/8/1 piotr micula &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:basiaipiotr@yahoo.com">bas=
iaipiotr@yahoo.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;UPA never engaged in genocide of Poles. It simply<br>
&gt; wanted them=A0out of<br>
&gt; &gt; Ukrainian territories&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This is a very interesting observation.=A0How<br>
&gt; about:=A0&quot;SS never engaged in<br>
&gt; &gt; genocide of Poles. It simply wanted them=A0out of<br>
&gt; German territories&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The more I read your posts, the more shocked I am.<br>
&gt; Looks like you know more<br>
&gt; &gt; than the general consensus of historians. Where do you<br>
&gt; get that info?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; BTW what do you understand by Ukrainian territories<br>
&gt; where Poles were<br>
&gt; &gt; unwanted and simply removed?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Tymek<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.ne=
t</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folk=
s" target=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folk=
s</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a>=
<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div><div class=3D"hm"> =A0 =A0 =A0_________________________________=
_________________________________<br>
Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer=
=AE 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at <a href=3D"http://downl=
oads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/" target=3D"_blank">http://downloads.yah=
oo.com/ca/internetexplorer/</a><br>

</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net">folks@wikipedometer.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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