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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:43:43 +0300
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From: Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>
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	Content preview:  On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 19:43,
	<PetersJV@aol.com> wrote: > >
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal
	> > > Still, I think S. is wrong. A proper warning must be given.
	Period. > > In a justice sense; in a due process sense; you're right.
	There is no doubt about it. But this is not Wikipedia works, and there's
	very little that we can do about it. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] Sandstein is done; Shotlandiya sanctioned
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	Content preview:  On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 19:43, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:
	> >
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal
	> > > Still, I think S. is wrong. A proper warning must be given.
	Period. > > In a justice sense; in a due process sense; you're right.
	There is no doubt about it. But this is not Wikipedia works, and there's
	very little that we can do about it. [...] 
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On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 19:43, <PetersJV@aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal
>
>
> Still, I think S. is wrong. A proper warning must be given. Period.
>
> In a justice sense; in a due process sense; you're right.  There is no
doubt about it.  But this is not Wikipedia works, and there's very little
that we can do about it.

Peters responded:

> This begs the question, is this an opportunity for one of us to say we
> agree with the ban but support the rules and therefore support the appeal?
> This might go a long way to making us look like we're not the ones with an
> axe to grind.
>
> No.  There are three ways this meme can get thrown in, and none of them is
advantageous.

1. If Shotlandiya would raise this issue, he would be accused of
wikilawyering.  As we know, they hate lawyers on wiki.

2. If we were to raise this issue, since due process is not honoured on
Wikipedia, nobody would accept that this is an issue of principle; it would
be interpreted as an act of mercy.  Given the context, not productive.

3. If an outsider were to raise this issue, there would be
administrative-level dramu.  I'd guess some 66% chance that it will fickle
down, and some 33% chance that the Cartel will successfully seize the chance
to escalate it into a question of Sandstein's desysopping.  It is unlikely
that Sandstein will be desysopped, but the process will be a new tornado
arbcom, and tornados are unpredictable.

If your conscience demands it, I guess the least harmful way would be to
write a private mail to Sandstein, and in it repeatedly explain that it is
about due process, and definitely not about criticism of Sandstein.
 Especially that you will not raise the issue in any public venue.  Keep in
mind that Sandstein can probably understand the situation in private, but if
he were to actually revert his decision, a lot of unnecessary extra dramu
would still be generated.  At most, Sandstein might do warning more
diligently in the future.

In pragmatic sense, it might perhaps be useful to note that Shotlandiya is
neither a particularly high-quality nor a high-quantity contributor, and the
little contributions that he has made that are actually useful are outside
Estonia/Russia topics.

-- 
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 19:43,  <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:PetersJV@aol.com">PetersJV@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">




<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font face=3D=
"Arial" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"><div class=3D"im">
<div>
<div><a title=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Request=
s/Enforcement#Appeal" href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitr=
ation/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.or=
g/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal</a><br>
</div><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:0px;margin-left:0px"><font style=3D=
"background-color:transparent" face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">=
<br>Still,=20
  I think S. is wrong. A proper warning must be given. Period.</font></bloc=
kquote></div></div></font></div></blockquote><div>In a justice sense; in a =
due process sense; you&#39;re right. =C2=A0There is no doubt about it. =C2=
=A0But this is not Wikipedia works, and there&#39;s very little that we can=
 do about it.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Peters responded:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex;"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial"><font f=
ace=3D"Arial" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"><div class=3D"im">
<div><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:0px;margin-left:0px">This begs the q=
uestion, is this an opportunity for one of us to say we=20
agree with the ban but support the rules and therefore support the appeal? =
This=20
might go a long way to making us look like we&#39;re not the ones with an a=
xe to=20
grind.</blockquote></div></div></font></div></blockquote><div>No. =C2=A0The=
re are three ways this meme can get thrown in, and none of them is advantag=
eous.</div><div><br></div><div>1. If Shotlandiya would raise this issue, he=
 would be accused of wikilawyering. =C2=A0As we know, they hate lawyers on =
wiki.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>2. If we were to raise this issue, since due proc=
ess is not honoured on Wikipedia, nobody would accept that this is an issue=
 of principle; it would be interpreted as an act of mercy. =C2=A0Given the =
context, not productive.</div>
<div><br></div><div>3. If an outsider were to raise this issue, there would=
 be administrative-level dramu. =C2=A0I&#39;d guess some 66% chance that it=
 will fickle down, and some 33% chance that the Cartel will successfully se=
ize the chance to escalate it into a question of Sandstein&#39;s desysoppin=
g. =C2=A0It is unlikely that Sandstein will be desysopped, but the process =
will be a new tornado arbcom, and tornados are unpredictable.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If your conscience demands it, I guess the least harmfu=
l way would be to write a private mail to Sandstein, and in it repeatedly e=
xplain that it is about due process, and definitely not about criticism of =
Sandstein. =C2=A0Especially that you will not raise the issue in any public=
 venue. =C2=A0Keep in mind that Sandstein can probably understand the situa=
tion in private, but if he were to actually revert his decision, a lot of u=
nnecessary extra dramu would still be generated. =C2=A0At most, Sandstein m=
ight do warning more diligently in the future.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In pragmatic sense, it might perhaps be useful to note =
that Shotlandiya is neither a particularly high-quality nor a high-quantity=
 contributor, and the little contributions that he has made that are actual=
ly useful are outside Estonia/Russia topics.</div>
<div><br></div></div>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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