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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 18:37:40 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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"Did he restore people advocating Nazi views,"

People advocating Nazi views.

Also he signed on the last day of 1949 amnesty law(the first one, there was
also the second one) as New Year's gift to German people(yup this is how it
is phrased), which pardoned 792,176 Nazi war criminals. Yes-792,176. Nice
isn't it ?

2009/9/2 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>

> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 17:02, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I left  school before the EU propaganda begun, I can only tell about
>> university experience, where there is a lot of EU material studied, that is
>> one-sided and completely uncritical to the entity.
>
>
> As far as I understand, it depends largely of the university in question,
> and the course.  Relations courses taken by future diplomats tend to gloss
> over criticism more than courses in economic analysis or history.  And
> courses related to social policy are an interesting beast.
>
>
>> Also there is a lot of manipulation-for example due to fact that our
>> university received grants from Germany we were indoctrinated and introduced
>> to such organizations as Konrad Adeneauer Fundation(
>> http://www.kas.de/proj/home/home/48/8/index.html) that propagate view of
>> Germany as peacefull, idyllic state that has totally rejected its Nazi past
>> and dealt with Nazis and only wants to love Poland(if only those pesky
>> Polish 'nationalists' would be gone). Of course that propaganda falls apart
>> when you learn history-in this case-that Adenauer , restored Nazis to
>> political life and for example sought to obtain nuclear weapons for Germany,
>> while rejecting Polish border.
>>
>
> Did he restore people advocating Nazi views, or people who had been members
> of the Nazi Party in a previous life?  They're quite different concepts.
>
> (I know, I know -- he did a bit of both.  But the point is still
> important.)
>
> In European-style bureaucracy, policymaking and management are largely
> separate.  Politicians make policy and stay out of management (for the most
> part), and bureaucrats administer big and small systems and stay out of
> politics (for the most part).  An important part of this system is that the
> professional bureaucrats are skilled administrators with often decades of
> experience, and can manage government systems even if they don't match their
> personal preferences; and politicians are skilled negoatiators with all the
> fresh (and often silly or just plain weird) ideas who can not necessarily
> manage a mom-and-pop store.  Many bureaucrats remain reusable even as
> radical changes of policy as the crash of Nazi Germany.  (Of course,
> bureaucrats with actual war crimes to their name -- such as Adolf Eichmann
> -- do not.)
>
> In American-style bureaucracy, things can be different.  (In a simplified
> sense, there are more politicians and less bureaucrats.  In many states, for
> example, it's routine for people to directly elect all kinds of local
> officials from Chief Dogcatcher to Attorney General, and in some states,
> even judges are directly elected.  Occasionally, it can lead to election of
> as colourful characters as Ajatollah Roy Moore, known largely for the
> Alabamakabala <http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/>.)
>  This can sometimes cause major misunderstandings; an educational example is
> Bush the Younger's aggressive cleanup of the bureaucracies of Iraq.  He
> considered all the Ba'athists political and had them fired; but by doing so,
> he got rid of most of the skilled bureaucrats, leading to numerous
> government failures in the newly understaffed and mis-staffed Iraq's
> government agencies.  Bush's underlings ended up quietly rehiring many of
> the previous administrators even if Ba'athists, as long as they didn't have
> too criminal a history.
>
> In totalitarian-style bureaucracies, things can also be different, but in a
> different way.  Totalitarian governments tend to go for "ideological
> purity", which often means that in order to even be considered for a
> bureaucrat position, one must be a member of The One True Party, at least
> nominally.  History shows us that even in systems that practice this kind of
> nomenclatura, policymakers and administrators do not have much overlap;
> probably because of difference of psychological profiles that fit these
> jobs.  (This does not appear to prevent bureaucrats from becoming
> politicians or vice versa, but it is not very common.)  Even so, it will be
> harder for an outside observer to tell ones from the others, because both
> look kind of like apparatchiks.
>
> --
> Andres Soolo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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&quot;Did he restore people advocating Nazi views,&quot;<br><br>People advo=
cating Nazi views.<br><br>Also he signed on the last day of 1949 amnesty la=
w(the first one, there was also the second one) as New Year&#39;s gift to G=
erman people(yup this is how it is phrased), which pardoned 792,176 Nazi wa=
r criminals. Yes-792,176. Nice isn&#39;t it ?<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/2 Digwuren <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">digwuren@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div>On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 17:02, Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">molobus@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I left=A0 school before the EU propaganda begun, I can only tell about univ=
ersity experience, where there is a lot of EU material studied, that is one=
-sided and completely uncritical to the entity.</blockquote><div><br></div>


</div><div>As far as I understand, it depends largely of the university in =
question, and the course. =A0Relations courses taken by future diplomats te=
nd to gloss over criticism more than courses in economic analysis or histor=
y. =A0And courses related to social policy are an interesting beast.</div>

<div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Als=
o there is a lot of manipulation-for example due to fact that our universit=
y received grants from Germany we were indoctrinated and introduced to such=
 organizations as Konrad Adeneauer Fundation(<a href=3D"http://www.kas.de/p=
roj/home/home/48/8/index.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.kas.de/proj/hom=
e/home/48/8/index.html</a>) that propagate view of Germany as peacefull, id=
yllic state that has totally rejected its Nazi past and dealt with Nazis an=
d only wants to love Poland(if only those pesky Polish &#39;nationalists&#3=
9; would be gone). Of course that propaganda falls apart when you learn his=
tory-in this case-that Adenauer , restored Nazis to political life and for =
example sought to obtain nuclear weapons for Germany, while rejecting Polis=
h border.<br>


</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Did he restore people advocating Naz=
i views, or people who had been members of the Nazi Party in a previous lif=
e? =A0They&#39;re quite different concepts.</div><div><br></div><div>(I kno=
w, I know -- he did a bit of both. =A0But the point is still important.)</d=
iv>


<div><br></div><div>In European-style bureaucracy, policymaking and managem=
ent are largely separate. =A0Politicians make policy and stay out of manage=
ment (for the most part), and bureaucrats administer big and small systems =
and stay out of politics (for the most part). =A0An important part of this =
system is that the professional bureaucrats are skilled administrators with=
 often decades of experience, and can manage government systems even if the=
y don&#39;t match their personal preferences; and politicians are skilled n=
egoatiators with all the fresh (and often silly or just plain weird) ideas =
who can not necessarily manage a mom-and-pop store. =A0Many bureaucrats rem=
ain reusable even as radical changes of policy as the crash of Nazi Germany=
. =A0(Of course, bureaucrats with actual war crimes to their name -- such a=
s Adolf Eichmann -- do not.)</div>


<div><br></div><div>In American-style bureaucracy, things can be different.=
 =A0(In a simplified sense, there are more politicians and less bureaucrats=
. =A0In many states, for example, it&#39;s routine for people to directly e=
lect all kinds of local officials from Chief Dogcatcher to Attorney General=
, and in some states, even judges are directly elected. =A0Occasionally, it=
 can lead to election of as colourful characters as Ajatollah Roy Moore, kn=
own largely for the <a href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.comman=
dments/" target=3D"_blank">Alabamakabala</a>.) =A0This can sometimes cause =
major misunderstandings; an educational example is Bush the Younger&#39;s a=
ggressive cleanup of the bureaucracies of Iraq. =A0He considered all the Ba=
&#39;athists political and had them fired; but by doing so, he got rid of m=
ost of the skilled bureaucrats, leading to numerous government failures in =
the newly understaffed and mis-staffed Iraq&#39;s government agencies. =A0B=
ush&#39;s underlings ended up quietly rehiring many of the previous adminis=
trators even if Ba&#39;athists, as long as they didn&#39;t have too crimina=
l a history.</div>


<div><br></div><div>In totalitarian-style bureaucracies, things can also be=
 different, but in a different way. =A0Totalitarian governments tend to go =
for &quot;ideological purity&quot;, which often means that in order to even=
 be considered for a bureaucrat position, one must be a member of The One T=
rue Party, at least nominally. =A0History shows us that even in systems tha=
t practice this kind of nomenclatura, policymakers and administrators do no=
t have much overlap; probably because of difference of psychological profil=
es that fit these jobs. =A0(This does not appear to prevent bureaucrats fro=
m becoming politicians or vice versa, but it is not very common.) =A0Even s=
o, it will be harder for an outside observer to tell ones from the others, =
because both look kind of like apparatchiks.</div>


<div><br></div></div><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>
</font><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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