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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:13:41 +0300
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	Content preview: 2009/6/18 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> > Well...
	New Yorker has its own ideas, I certainly wouldn't call it > uninvolved
	in politics when it comes to Middle East. I really recommend the >
	Stratfor article which offers a more thoughtfull analysis. > >
	http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_iranian_reality
	> > Mind that that most reporters have contact to a very narrow group
	of
	> people(students, professors, politicians) that do not represent the
	whole of > society. And for what is worth-while the elections in
	Belarus
	Iran no doubt > are subject to manipulation there is no doubt that in
	both countries the > rulling elites enjouy a majority of support. >
	Remember that those reporters as well have their own biases and may be
	not > objective. > And those reports confirm that the opposition is
	very
	narrow-students, > urban middle class and intelectuals-I don't think
	that those people > represent the majority of Iranian society... >
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	Content preview:  2009/6/18 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> > Well...
	New Yorker has its own ideas, I certainly wouldn't call it > uninvolved
	in politics when it comes to Middle East. I really recommend the >
	Stratfor article which offers a more thoughtfull analysis. > >
	http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_iranian_reality
	> > Mind that that most reporters have contact to a very narrow group of
	> people(students, professors, politicians) that do not represent the
	whole of > society. And for what is worth-while the elections in Belarus
	Iran no doubt > are subject to manipulation there is no doubt that in
	both countries the > rulling elites enjouy a majority of support. >
	Remember that those reporters as well have their own biases and may be
	not > objective. > And those reports confirm that the opposition is very
	narrow-students, > urban middle class and intelectuals-I don't think
	that those people > represent the majority of Iranian society... > [...] 
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2009/6/18 Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>

> Well... New Yorker has its own ideas, I certainly wouldn't call it
> uninvolved in politics when it comes to Middle East. I really recommend t=
he
> Stratfor article which offers a more thoughtfull analysis.
>
> http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_irani=
an_reality
>
> Mind that that most reporters have contact to a very narrow group of
> people(students, professors, politicians) that do not represent the whole=
 of
> society. And for what is worth-while the elections in Belarus Iran no dou=
bt
> are subject to manipulation there is no doubt that in both countries the
> rulling elites enjouy a majority of support.
> Remember that those reporters as well have their own biases and may be no=
t
> objective.
> And those reports confirm that the opposition is very narrow-students,
> urban middle class and intelectuals-I don't think that those people
> represent the majority of Iranian society...
>

While I agree at large with you, I believe your reasoning misses a key
point: it is the urban middle class, the students, the intellectuals,
including rural teachers, doctors and engineers, plus the political support
groups, and of course plus the media (by my reckoning, it should be
somewhere around 20-30% of eligible voters in total) that form the public
opinion(s) in free countries. The rest follow suit. It is only normal to be
so. When things are different than that, the society is abnormal. And that
is precisely the case in all these countries, including Iran. Namely, we
have the 20% able to "convince" other 17%, and 20 guys able to "convince"
the rest 63% (this is if we trust the official Iranian figures). So the key
point that I believe all commentators should point out, but many miss is: *=
why
are the 63% of no-thinker class follow dumbly and blindly a despot, while
only 17% of no-thinker-class follow the thinker class.* * My definition of
thinker/no-thinker allows for a person to chose to which of these two
"classes" s/he belongs, i.e. if you have thought about politics and have an
opinion, no matter which it is, then you are a thinker regardless of your
profession. * Because the despot prevents the freedom of ideas and freedom
of speech. *And there should the free world intervene, in enforcing freedom
of information and speech, not in observing the elections.*

And btw, I don't think 36-37% (as in Iran) is "very narrow". "Very narrow",
IMHO, means less than 5-10%. Given that some 3-5% are most probably rigged,
a 40%:60% result calls for dialog, not for exclusion of opponents. *If you
refuse dialog when you have 40% against you, you ask for revolution. *It
means you only understand the language of blood. The free world should not
allow in power people who understand only the language of blood. The free
world should bomb such regimes until they start dialog.


> "Ahmadinejad may go on TV and cite statistics to prove that things are
> getting better, but they're the ones who are unable to marry because they
> can never afford to get their own homes"
> Amusingly, while we are not a islamic theocracy we face the same problem =
in
> Poland ;]
> And I believe Spain has it as well.
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28179360/
> "Daniel Lostao, president of the state-financed Youth Council, an umbrell=
a
> organization of Spanish youth groups, said young people in Spain face
> daunting challenges =97 soaring unemployment, low salaries and difficulty=
 in
> leaving the family nest because of expensive housing."


Most of the world as we know it face the same problems. The difference
between Christians and Muslims is that for Christian it is to some degree
shameful to complain about that (and in general, Christians are supposed to
bear and never to complain), while Muslims do not feel shame to complain. I=
t
is a major cultural difference, similar to the 30 cm minimum distance
between two persons.

As for the Spanish, well now they know how it feels to be from a country in
continuous economic transition. "Difficulty to leaving the family nest" my
a**, "low salaries" my a** Be a top student, bear and fight, fight and bear=
,
and you'll succeed. Ah, in the west they got used to everybody to just be
able to do that without effort... That should not be the case. You should
show some effort, you should show you are able to achieve something. Ok,
maybe this should be the case for 50% of people, not for 10% as it is now i=
n
Eastern Europe. But I don't agree it should be for 100% as it is in the
west.

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<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/6/18 Molobo Molobo <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:molobus@gmail.com">molobus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Well... New Yorker has its own ideas, I certainly wouldn&#39;t call it unin=
volved in politics when it comes to Middle East. I really recommend the Str=
atfor article which offers a more thoughtfull analysis.<br><a href=3D"http:=
//www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_iranian_real=
ity" target=3D"_blank">http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misc=
onceptions_meet_iranian_reality</a><br>

<br>Mind that that most reporters have contact to a very narrow group of pe=
ople(students, professors, politicians) that do not represent the whole of =
society. And for what is worth-while the elections in Belarus Iran no doubt=
 are subject to manipulation there is no doubt that in both countries the r=
ulling elites enjouy a majority of support. <br>

Remember that those reporters as well have their own biases and may be not =
objective.<br>And those reports confirm that the opposition is very narrow-=
students, urban middle class and intelectuals-I don&#39;t think that those =
people represent the majority of Iranian society...<div class=3D"im">
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>While I agree at large with you, I b=
elieve your reasoning misses a key point: it is the urban middle class, the=
 students, the intellectuals, including rural teachers, doctors and enginee=
rs, plus the political support groups, and of course plus the media (by my =
reckoning, it should be somewhere around 20-30% of eligible voters in total=
) that form the public opinion(s) in free countries. The rest follow suit. =
It is only normal to be so. When things are different than that, the societ=
y is abnormal. And that is precisely the case in all these countries, inclu=
ding Iran. Namely, we have the 20% able to &quot;convince&quot; other 17%, =
and 20 guys able to &quot;convince&quot; the rest 63% (this is if we trust =
the official Iranian figures). So the key point that I believe all commenta=
tors should point out, but many miss is: <b>why are the 63% of no-thinker c=
lass follow dumbly and blindly a despot, while only 17% of no-thinker-class=
 follow the thinker class.</b> * My definition of thinker/no-thinker allows=
 for a person to chose to which of these two &quot;classes&quot; s/he belon=
gs, i.e. if you have thought about politics and have an opinion, no matter =
which it is, then you are a thinker regardless of your profession. * Becaus=
e the despot prevents the freedom of ideas and freedom of speech. <b>And th=
ere should the free world intervene, in enforcing freedom of information an=
d speech, not in observing the elections.</b></div>
<div><br></div><div>And btw, I don&#39;t think 36-37% (as in Iran) is &quot=
;very narrow&quot;. &quot;Very narrow&quot;, IMHO, means less than 5-10%. G=
iven that some 3-5% are most probably rigged, a 40%:60% result calls for di=
alog, not for exclusion of opponents. <b>If you refuse dialog when you have=
 40% against you, you ask for revolution. </b>It means you only understand =
the language of blood. The free world should not allow in power people who =
understand only the language of blood. The free world should bomb such regi=
mes until they start dialog.</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"im">&quot;Ahmad=
inejad may go on TV and cite statistics to prove that things are
getting better, but they&#39;re the ones who are unable to marry because
they can never afford to get their own homes&quot;<br></div>Amusingly, whil=
e we are not a islamic theocracy we face the same problem in Poland ;]<br>A=
nd I believe Spain has it as well.<br><a href=3D"http://www.msnbc.msn.com/i=
d/28179360/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28179360/</a><br=
>

&quot;Daniel Lostao, president of the state-financed Youth Council, an
umbrella organization of Spanish youth groups, said young people in
Spain face daunting challenges =97 soaring unemployment, low salaries and
difficulty in leaving the family nest because of expensive housing.&quot;</=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>Most of the world as we know it face the sam=
e problems. The difference between Christians and Muslims is that for Chris=
tian it is to some degree shameful to complain about that (and in general, =
Christians are supposed to bear and never to complain), while Muslims do no=
t feel shame to complain. It is a major cultural difference, similar to the=
 30 cm minimum distance between two persons.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for the Spanish, well now they know how it feels to =
be from a country in continuous economic transition. &quot;Difficulty to le=
aving the family nest&quot; my a**, &quot;low salaries&quot; my a** Be a to=
p student, bear and fight, fight and bear, and you&#39;ll succeed. Ah, in t=
he west they got used to everybody to just be able to do that without effor=
t... That should not be the case. You should show some effort, you should s=
how you are able to achieve something. Ok, maybe this should be the case fo=
r 50% of people, not for 10% as it is now in Eastern Europe. But I don&#39;=
t agree it should be for 100% as it is in the west. =A0=A0</div>
</div>

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