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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:10:37 +0300
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	Content preview:  On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 07:26, Christian Suciu
	<christiansuciu@yahoo.com>wrote: > OK, so no psychological warfare - I
	understand the message. It was a crazy > idea conceived at 3 am when I
	should have been asleep. I just hope ArbCom > doesn't receive that
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Subject: Re: [WPM] China?
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	Content preview:  On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 07:26, Christian Suciu
	<christiansuciu@yahoo.com>wrote: > OK, so no psychological warfare - I
	understand the message. It was a crazy > idea conceived at 3 am when I
	should have been asleep. I just hope ArbCom > doesn't receive that
	letter. In my defence, it was only a notion that never > advanced beyond
	a single message. [...] 
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On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 07:26, Christian Suciu <christiansuciu@yahoo.com>wr=
ote:

> OK, so no psychological warfare - I understand the message. It was a craz=
y
> idea conceived at 3 am when I should have been asleep. I just hope ArbCom
> doesn't receive that letter. In my defence, it was only a notion that nev=
er
> advanced beyond a single message.


Psychological warfare perhaps, obvious and open harassment no.  This sort o=
f
harassment serves no useful purpose; any maddening aspects of it would be
severely reduced by Russavia deciding who would be behind it (no evidence i=
s
needed for that, and the decision needs even not be accurate), and this sor=
t
of thing is one of the few forms of incivility that Wikipedia's
administrators actually care about -- partially because unlike with
incivility, anonymous harassers almost never show up in AN/I threads.  If
Russavia can plausibly claim that "his opponents" harassed him, all sorts o=
f
future DR actions, including arbcom, are likely to consider him the victim,
and give credence to the idea that "his opponents" -- who may or may not be
related to the harassment, must be the evildoers worth punishing.

In short, it's a bad idea for purely pragmatic reasons.  If ethical reasons
concur with pragmatism, the better.

Still, I find it outrageous (though not wholly unsurprising) that a
> dictatorship is perverting the encyclopedia to fit its propaganda message=
,
> and I hope the champions of neutrality eventually emerge triumphant.
>

I do not think Wikipedia can rise out of the swamp it's currently in.  A
replacement encyclop=C3=A6dia might, but it'll have to overcome a lot of th=
e
issues that cause problems to Wikipedia.

For the time being, Wikipedia has a lot of (undeserved) trust by people
throughout the world, and our interests dictate that it should not contain
pure Kremlin's propaganda in the topics we care about, such as the "near
abroad" region.  This battle we can win, and I suggest is this is what we
should consider our primary Wikipedia-related goal.

By the way, who else is using Wikipedia for propaganda? We know the CIA has
> edited, but I'm not sure what articles. How about the Chinese?
>

The Chinese government's censorship is mainly targeted at its own citizens,
out of fear that they might riot if they read about democracy and stuff.
 They're much less concerned with China's image overseas than the Russian
government is.  (Even so, Chinese ambassador in Estonia has at least once
bothered to respond to a random anarchist's letter to Postimees' editor,
carefully explaining how China brought culture and prosperity to Tibet,
which is an integral part of China and not conquered.)

I believe most notable groups using Wikipedia for propaganda are political
factions, particularly a number of pressure groups, and commercial provider=
s
-- if they get caught, they're called spammers.  Suva has also proposed tha=
t
somebody is systematically going through articles related to nuclear
warfare, and making sure that these articles are riddled with errors and
disinformation.  (In this light, Petri Krohn's interest in obscure nuclear
devices is rather peculiar.)  Conservapedia, for example, was created by
people who attempted to influence Wikipedia, and then (mostly) gave up.  In
immortal words of Bender: "Forget your stupid Wikipedia!  I'm gonna make my
own!  With hookers!  And blackjack!"

I have a vague impression that there are some very pro-PRC editors, but als=
o
> anti-Communist ones from Taiwan, Hong Kong & overseas. It would be
> interesting to compare how Russia and China differ in their approach to
> spreading propaganda on Wikipedia.
>

Some propaganda campaigns are geared towards retaining followers; others ar=
e
geared towards drafting new followers or "educating" the outsiders about th=
e
One True Holy Truth.  Like Conservapedia, China is mostly interested in
retaining its followers -- in interests of public tranquillity, it believes=
.
 Russia also has this goal, naturally, but Russia is much more interested i=
n
sharing its own visions of past and grandeur with outsiders.

Lying to their own people is ugly, but there's not a lot that we can do
about it.  (SciFi has touched this topic on more than one occasion, by the
way.  Often, in idealised forms that do not work in real world.)  Lying to
other people is something that we can do something about.  It's not easy bu=
t
it's possible.

Belarus might be another interesting case, especially as Lukashenka's
> relations with Russia cool.
>

My understanding is that Belarus is one of the closest imitations of what
Soviet Union was in about 1988.  Interpolating that to the Internet era,
most Belarusians probably do not have significant Internet access, have har=
d
time understanding English, and most of what we, as outsiders, can see of
Belarus' Internet, is controlled by the government or its major
corporations.  In this context, propaganda would be a bit of redundant.

Venezuela and Iran probably have enough Western apologists not to have to
> worry about spending their own money for propaganda.
>

Iran's totalitarianism is not based on ideological propaganda as much as ra=
w
sharia power.  It does maintain national censorship firewalls -- ostensibly=
,
for "smut" -- but this is secondary.

Venezuela is more complicated.  I have heard a number of interesting
rumours, but in the first approximation, it would seem that it's relying on
propaganda measures from newspaper era -- which means that it does rely on
outsiders, perhaps expats, to distribute its goodwill overseas.

And North Korea?
>

No Internet to speak of.  (Remember when Soviet Union had no sex?)
 Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for dissidents, when you declare
there is no Internet, Internet propaganda becomes harder for the government=
,
and easier for the outlaws.  It also means it's very hard to properly
understand what's going on from outside.

--=20
Andres Soolo

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 07:26, Christian Suciu <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christiansuciu@yahoo.com">christians=
uciu@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td vali=
gn=3D"top" style=3D"font:inherit">OK, so no psychological warfare - I under=
stand the message. It was a crazy idea conceived at 3 am when I should have=
 been asleep. I just hope ArbCom doesn&#39;t receive that letter. In my def=
ence, it was only a notion that never advanced beyond a single message.</td=
>
</tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Psychological warfare=
 perhaps, obvious and open harassment no. =C2=A0This sort of harassment ser=
ves no useful purpose; any maddening aspects of it would be severely reduce=
d by Russavia deciding who would be behind it (no evidence is needed for th=
at, and the decision needs even not be accurate), and this sort of thing is=
 one of the few forms of incivility that Wikipedia&#39;s administrators act=
ually care about -- partially because unlike with incivility, anonymous har=
assers almost never show up in AN/I threads. =C2=A0If Russavia can plausibl=
y claim that &quot;his opponents&quot; harassed him, all sorts of future DR=
 actions, including arbcom, are likely to consider him the victim, and give=
 credence to the idea that &quot;his opponents&quot; -- who may or may not =
be related to the harassment, must be the evildoers worth punishing.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In short, it&#39;s a bad idea for purely pragmatic reas=
ons. =C2=A0If ethical reasons concur with pragmatism, the better.</div><div=
><br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td vali=
gn=3D"top" style=3D"font:inherit"><div>Still, I find it outrageous (though =
not wholly unsurprising) that a dictatorship is perverting the encyclopedia=
 to fit its propaganda message, and I hope the champions of neutrality even=
tually emerge triumphant.</div>
</td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I do not think W=
ikipedia can rise out of the swamp it&#39;s currently in. =C2=A0A replaceme=
nt encyclop=C3=A6dia might, but it&#39;ll have to overcome a lot of the iss=
ues that cause problems to Wikipedia.</div>
<div><br></div><div>For the time being, Wikipedia has a lot of (undeserved)=
 trust by people throughout the world, and our interests dictate that it sh=
ould not contain pure Kremlin&#39;s propaganda in the topics we care about,=
 such as the &quot;near abroad&quot; region. =C2=A0This battle we can win, =
and I suggest is this is what we should consider our primary Wikipedia-rela=
ted goal.</div>
<div><br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacin=
g=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=
=3D"font:inherit">
<div>By the way, who else is using Wikipedia for propaganda? We know the CI=
A has edited, but I&#39;m not sure what articles. How about the Chinese?</d=
iv></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The Chinese g=
overnment&#39;s censorship is mainly targeted at its own citizens, out of f=
ear that they might riot if they read about democracy and stuff. =C2=A0They=
&#39;re much less concerned with China&#39;s image overseas than the Russia=
n government is. =C2=A0(Even so, Chinese ambassador in Estonia has at least=
 once bothered to respond to a random anarchist&#39;s letter to Postimees&#=
39; editor, carefully explaining how China brought culture and prosperity t=
o Tibet, which is an integral part of China and not conquered.)</div>
<div><br></div><div>I believe most notable groups using Wikipedia for propa=
ganda are political factions, particularly a number of pressure groups, and=
 commercial providers -- if they get caught, they&#39;re called spammers. =
=C2=A0Suva has also proposed that somebody is systematically going through =
articles related to nuclear warfare, and making sure that these articles ar=
e riddled with errors and disinformation. =C2=A0(In this light, Petri Krohn=
&#39;s interest in obscure nuclear devices is rather peculiar.) =C2=A0Conse=
rvapedia, for example, was created by people who attempted to influence Wik=
ipedia, and then (mostly) gave up. =C2=A0In immortal words of Bender: &quot=
;Forget your stupid Wikipedia! =C2=A0I&#39;m gonna make my own! =C2=A0With =
hookers! =C2=A0And blackjack!&quot;</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cel=
lpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"font:inh=
erit"><div>
I have a vague impression that there are some very pro-PRC editors, but als=
o anti-Communist ones from Taiwan, Hong Kong &amp; overseas. It would be in=
teresting to compare how Russia and China differ in their approach to
 spreading propaganda on Wikipedia.</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Some propaganda campaigns are geared towards retai=
ning followers; others are geared towards drafting new followers or &quot;e=
ducating&quot; the outsiders about the One True Holy Truth. =C2=A0Like Cons=
ervapedia, China is mostly interested in retaining its followers -- in inte=
rests of public tranquillity, it believes. =C2=A0Russia also has this goal,=
 naturally, but Russia is much more interested in sharing its own visions o=
f past and grandeur with outsiders.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Lying to their own people is ugly, but there&#39;s not =
a lot that we can do about it. =C2=A0(SciFi has touched this topic on more =
than one occasion, by the way. =C2=A0Often, in idealised forms that do not =
work in real world.) =C2=A0Lying to other people is something that we can d=
o something about. =C2=A0It&#39;s not easy but it&#39;s possible.</div>
<div><br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacin=
g=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=
=3D"font:inherit">
<div>Belarus might be another interesting case, especially as Lukashenka&#3=
9;s relations with Russia cool.</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>My understanding is that Belarus is one of the closest=
 imitations of what Soviet Union was in about 1988. =C2=A0Interpolating tha=
t to the Internet era, most Belarusians probably do not have significant In=
ternet access, have hard time understanding English, and most of what we, a=
s outsiders, can see of Belarus&#39; Internet, is controlled by the governm=
ent or its major corporations. =C2=A0In this context, propaganda would be a=
 bit of redundant.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cel=
lpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"font:inh=
erit"><div>
Venezuela and Iran probably have enough Western apologists not to have to w=
orry about spending their own money for propaganda.</div></td></tr></tbody>=
</table></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Iran&#39;s totalitarianism is not =
based on ideological propaganda as much as raw sharia power. =C2=A0It does =
maintain national censorship firewalls -- ostensibly, for &quot;smut&quot; =
-- but this is secondary.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Venezuela is more complicated. =C2=A0I have heard a num=
ber of interesting rumours, but in the first approximation, it would seem t=
hat it&#39;s relying on propaganda measures from newspaper era -- which mea=
ns that it does rely on outsiders, perhaps expats, to distribute its goodwi=
ll overseas.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cel=
lpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"font:inh=
erit"><div>
 And North Korea?</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>No Internet to speak of. =C2=A0(Remember when Soviet Union had no se=
x?) =C2=A0Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for dissidents, when you =
declare there is no Internet, Internet propaganda becomes harder for the go=
vernment, and easier for the outlaws. =C2=A0It also means it&#39;s very har=
d to properly understand what&#39;s going on from outside.</div>
<div><br></div></div>-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>

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