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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:11:26 +0200
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From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  Indeed, I am always saddened when some kind of
	magic-stupidity field falls on my fellow countrymen when dealing with
	the Ukrainian issues. Guys really come down and stay away from those
	topics if you can't handle it. Really they are far more important
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Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
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Indeed, I am always saddened when some kind of magic-stupidity field falls
on my fellow countrymen when dealing with the Ukrainian issues. Guys really
come down and stay away from those topics if you can't handle it. Really
they are far more important subjects and more pressing matters to attend to=
.

I apologize as a Pole for any problems Ostap and his fellow Ukrainians had.

I think it would be good if Poeticibent apologised for anything taken as
personal insult to the fellow editors, while removing those parts of
sentences. Would be good if you would promise to take a week of editing
subjects connected to the issues. Your contributions are extremely welcomed
and valuable but please remember that we don't want to lose you to some
reckless bickering on discussion pages.
Also using such phrases as "I know it hurts having to accept the
responsibility for a genocide =96 as a nation =96 but it is a necessary
ingredient in the process of future reconciliation between the two peoples"
not only does serve to help but inflames the discussion further. Not to
mention that it is a very extreme POV take on what happened historically.

Ostap if you could tone down the argument and ask for Poeticibent to beheav=
e
in more reserved matter ? Perhaps suggesting that instead of ban,
Poeticibent should take some time off from the article ?


2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>

> And now of course Wiki has crashed and I can't do anything...
>
> 2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>
>
> This is unfortunate but I think both Poeticbent and Ostap didn't realize
>> that they could work things through here rather than publicly - let's no=
t
>> break up the group but figure out how we can resolve this w/o anyone get=
ting
>> a ban or a block. Ostap should pedal back his suggestion for a ban as so=
on
>> as possible and say he's fine with a warning or a dispute resolution
>> process.
>>
>> I got a little bit involved in the article earlier, before my break and
>> was trying to reconcile things with Faustian peacfully - it seemed to be
>> working ok but then I had to leave for work related stuff. The presense =
of
>> both Pawel5583 and Lvivske is not helping on this article. I still am
>> undecided whether Faustian is potential "trouble" but he seems to respon=
d
>> well if one treats him with respect and calmly discusses things out firs=
t.
>> The most important thing on articles like these is to keep one's cool.
>> Saying things like "You don't seem to know how to write well, so please =
let
>> me take care of the article's structure." is going to piss off even the =
most
>> good faithed editor. Richard should say something to the effect that he'=
s
>> gotten ahead of himself and he's ready to calmly talk throught things.
>>
>> I'm going to comment to the effect that it's an emotionally charged issu=
e,
>> Faustian has been making substantive changes that not everybody agrees w=
ith,
>> that the involved parties should talk this out.
>> I can also email Faustian and see if he's willing to back down on this -
>> like I said, he seemed reasonable to me before and maybe he'd be willing=
.
>> Maybe Ostap should do the same.
>>
>> But above all - yes, please discuss things like this here first. Not jus=
t
>> if and when another of our members is involved but also just when editin=
g
>> topics that somebody on here might be concerned about. If I'm going to e=
dit
>> Polish-Ukrainian topics I'd give Ostap a heads up first. Likewise with o=
ther
>> areas. This is a security issue for us as well.
>>
>> I'm going to comment on the thread and await further discussion here.
>>
>> Radek
>>
>>
>> 2009/7/31 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>
>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:30, Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am afraid I will have to withdraw from the WPM group and suggest all
>>>
>>> Polish editors do so as well. With a member suggesting a ban on another
>>>
>>> for a petty issue, I no longer have confidence that this group integrit=
y
>>>
>>> is uncompromised. With ban proposals on ANI against one of the most
>>>
>>> productive members of the Polish community, I will have to take a stanc=
e
>>>
>>> against the Ukrainian editors, and I cannot assume that this
>>>
>>> communication channel nor anything I will say here are secure anymore,
>>>
>>> particularly as some of the things said here can be easily used to
>>>
>>> justify a ban on the members of this discussion group.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Piotrus*, please, calm down.  I hope Ostap just didn't think it throug=
h
>>> properly.  Poeticbent has written very rarely here; perhaps Ostap just
>>> didn't realise he can resolve any outstanding issues with Poeticbent th=
rough
>>> this list in a faster, less dramu-laden and more discreet way than on
>>> Wikipedia.
>>>
>>> What I find problematic is that one member of our group is proposing a
>>>> ban on another:
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DWikipedia:Administrators%2=
7_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D305222320
>>>
>>>
>>> This *is* problematic.  *Ostap*, please do not do it.
>>>
>>> Minor disagreements on-Wikipedia are OK, and actually encouraged -- it
>>> makes it harder for anybody opposing us claim that we're sockpuppets of=
 each
>>> other --, but Poeticbent has been under severe risk of banning on Wikip=
edia
>>> for months now.  A push like this can realise this risk, and that would=
 be
>>> rather problematic.
>>>
>>> One of the reasons we set up this list was so that the participants
>>> could, through having trust in each other's judgment, and consult each =
other
>>> for appropriate actions on Wikipedia.  Proposing a ban on Poeticbent on
>>> Wikipedia undermines this trust, and it's a bad idea.  Besides, if you =
find
>>> Poeticbent is doing something rash, rude or just plain silly, contactin=
g him
>>> privately (or through the list so other supportive editors can help in
>>> resolving any ambiguities) is bound to be more effective.
>>>
>>> *Poeticbent*, as Piotrus said, please avoid continued reverting.
>>>  Wikipedia is notorious for lax enforcement of all sorts of policies, b=
ut it
>>> sure loves the 3RR policy -- because it's so technical, so easy to asse=
rt
>>> and enforce.  If you find an opposing party is reverting you repeatedly=
,
>>> call in help through the list.  There are about ten of us; we can easil=
y
>>> out-revert any single opponent *and* thus demonstrade wide consensus if=
 it's
>>> necessary.  Then, 3RR will work for us, not against us.
>>>
>>> All that having been said, any group of people is bound to get into
>>> conflict every now and then, and we're no exception to this rule.  But =
let's
>>> try to work out the conflict in a civil, rational manner.  We don't hav=
e
>>> fault-seeking Wikipedian politicians here to try and twist everybody's =
every
>>> word, so we should be able to do it better than it's possible on Wikipe=
dia.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andres Soolo
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
>>> folks@wikipedometer.net
>>> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia statistics discussion list
> folks@wikipedometer.net
> http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks
>
>

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Indeed, I am always saddened when some kind of magic-stupidity field
falls on my fellow countrymen when dealing with the Ukrainian issues.
Guys really come down and stay away from those topics if you can&#39;t
handle it. Really they are far more important subjects and more
pressing matters to attend to.<br>
<br>I apologize as a Pole for any problems Ostap and his fellow Ukrainians =
had.<br><br>I
think it would be good if Poeticibent apologised for anything taken as
personal insult to the fellow editors, while removing those parts of
sentences. Would be good if you would promise to take a week of editing
subjects connected to the issues. Your contributions are extremely
welcomed and valuable but please remember that we don&#39;t want to lose
you to some reckless bickering on discussion pages. <br>
Also using such phrases as &quot;I know it hurts having to accept the
responsibility for a genocide =96 as
a nation =96 but it is a necessary ingredient in the process of future
reconciliation between the two peoples&quot; not only does serve to help bu=
t
inflames the discussion further. Not to mention that it is a very
extreme POV take on what happened historically.<br><br>Ostap
if you could tone down the argument and ask for Poeticibent to beheave
in more reserved matter ? Perhaps suggesting that instead of ban,
Poeticibent should take some time off from the article ?<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/31 radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(=
204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
And now of course Wiki has crashed and I can&#39;t do anything...<br><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/31 radek szulga <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rsszulga@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span><div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
This is unfortunate but I think both Poeticbent and Ostap didn&#39;t realiz=
e that they could work things through here rather than publicly - let&#39;s=
 not break up the group but figure out how we can resolve this w/o anyone g=
etting a ban or a block. Ostap should pedal back his suggestion for a ban a=
s soon as possible and say he&#39;s fine with a warning or a dispute resolu=
tion process.<br>


<br>I got a little bit involved in the article earlier, before my break and=
 was trying to reconcile things with Faustian peacfully - it seemed to be w=
orking ok but then I had to leave for work related stuff. The presense of b=
oth Pawel5583 and Lvivske is not helping on this article. I still am undeci=
ded whether Faustian is potential &quot;trouble&quot; but he seems to respo=
nd well if one treats him with respect and calmly discusses things out firs=
t.<br>


The most important thing on articles like these is to keep one&#39;s cool. =
Saying things like &quot;You don&#39;t seem to know how to write well, so p=
lease let me take care of the article&#39;s structure.&quot; is going to pi=
ss off even the most good faithed editor. Richard should say something to t=
he effect that he&#39;s gotten ahead of himself and he&#39;s ready to calml=
y talk throught things.<br>


<br>I&#39;m going to comment to the effect that it&#39;s an emotionally cha=
rged issue, Faustian has been making substantive changes that not everybody=
 agrees with, that the involved parties should talk this out.<br>I can also=
 email Faustian and see if he&#39;s willing to back down on this - like I s=
aid, he seemed reasonable to me before and maybe he&#39;d be willing. Maybe=
 Ostap should do the same.<br>


<br>But above all - yes, please discuss things like this here first. Not ju=
st if and when another of our members is involved but also just when editin=
g topics that somebody on here might be concerned about. If I&#39;m going t=
o edit Polish-Ukrainian topics I&#39;d give Ostap a heads up first. Likewis=
e with other areas. This is a security issue for us as well.<br>


<br>I&#39;m going to comment on the thread and await further discussion her=
e.<br><br>Radek<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/7/31 Digwuren <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>digwuren@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><=
div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:30, Piotr Ko=
nieczny <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;</span> wrote:</div>


</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">
I am afraid I will have to withdraw from the WPM group and suggest all</blo=
ckquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid r=
gb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Polish editors do so as well. With a member suggesting a ban on another</bl=
ockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
for a petty issue, I no longer have confidence that this group integrity</b=
lockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
is uncompromised. With ban proposals on ANI against one of the most</blockq=
uote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(=
204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
productive members of the Polish community, I will have to take a stance</b=
lockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
against the Ukrainian editors, and I cannot assume that this</blockquote><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
communication channel nor anything I will say here are secure anymore,</blo=
ckquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid r=
gb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
particularly as some of the things said here can be easily used to</blockqu=
ote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
justify a ban on the members of this discussion group.</blockquote><div><br=
></div></div><div><b>Piotrus</b>, please, calm down. =A0I hope Ostap just d=
idn&#39;t think it through properly. =A0Poeticbent has written very rarely =
here; perhaps Ostap just didn&#39;t realise he can resolve any outstanding =
issues with Poeticbent through this list in a faster, less dramu-laden and =
more discreet way than on Wikipedia.</div>


<div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =
solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv>What I find problematic is that one member of our group is proposing a</=
div>



ban on another:<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DWikipedia:Administra=
tors%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=3D305222320" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DWikipedia:Admini=
strators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=3D305222320<=
/a></blockquote>



<div><br></div></div><div>This *is* problematic. =A0<b>Ostap</b>, please do=
 not do it.</div><div><br></div><div>Minor disagreements on-Wikipedia are O=
K, and actually encouraged -- it makes it harder for anybody opposing us cl=
aim that we&#39;re sockpuppets of each other --, but Poeticbent has been un=
der severe risk of banning on Wikipedia for months now. =A0A push like this=
 can realise this risk, and that would be rather problematic.</div>



<div><br></div><div>One of the reasons we set up this list was so that the =
participants could, through having trust in each other&#39;s judgment, and =
consult each other for appropriate actions on Wikipedia. =A0Proposing a ban=
 on Poeticbent on Wikipedia undermines this trust, and it&#39;s a bad idea.=
 =A0Besides, if you find Poeticbent is doing something rash, rude or just p=
lain silly, contacting him privately (or through the list so other supporti=
ve editors can help in resolving any ambiguities) is bound to be more effec=
tive.</div>



<div><br></div><div><b>Poeticbent</b>, as Piotrus said, please avoid contin=
ued reverting. =A0Wikipedia is notorious for lax enforcement of all sorts o=
f policies, but it sure loves the 3RR policy -- because it&#39;s so technic=
al, so easy to assert and enforce. =A0If you find an opposing party is reve=
rting you repeatedly, call in help through the list. =A0There are about ten=
 of us; we can easily out-revert any single opponent *and* thus demonstrade=
 wide consensus if it&#39;s necessary. =A0Then, 3RR will work for us, not a=
gainst us.</div>



<div><br></div><div>All that having been said, any group of people is bound=
 to get into conflict every now and then, and we&#39;re no exception to thi=
s rule. =A0But let&#39;s try to work out the conflict in a civil, rational =
manner. =A0We don&#39;t have fault-seeking Wikipedian politicians here to t=
ry and twist everybody&#39;s every word, so we should be able to do it bett=
er than it&#39;s possible on Wikipedia.</div>



<div><br></div></div><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br>Andres Soolo<br>
</font><br></div></div><div>_______________________________________________=
<br>
Wikipedia statistics discussion list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:folks@wikipedometer.net" target=3D"_blank">folks@wikipedo=
meter.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks" target=
=3D"_blank">http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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