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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:28:16 +0200
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From: Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
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	Content preview:  2009/3/12 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com> > On Thu, Mar
	12, 2009 at 15:19, Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>wrote: > >> On
	the same day Romanian Foreign Ministry recommended the Ukrainian >>
	Embassy in Romania to withdraw its military attache and his assistant
	(the >> "persona non-grata" formulation was used). > > > Strictly
	speaking, 'persona non grata' is not a recommendation, it's a > rather
	forceful order to leave. Do you mean that they threatened to declare >
	him persona non grata, and then he left without the declaration, or was
	he > actually declared? > [...] 
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	Content preview:  2009/3/12 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com> > On Thu, Mar
	12, 2009 at 15:19, Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>wrote: > >> On
	the same day Romanian Foreign Ministry recommended the Ukrainian >>
	Embassy in Romania to withdraw its military attache and his assistant
	(the >> "persona non-grata" formulation was used). > > > Strictly
	speaking, 'persona non grata' is not a recommendation, it's a > rather
	forceful order to leave. Do you mean that they threatened to declare >
	him persona non grata, and then he left without the declaration, or was
	he > actually declared? > [...] 
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2009/3/12 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>

> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 15:19, Dorin Cheptea <dorin.cheptea@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On the same day Romanian Foreign Ministry recommended the Ukrainian
>> Embassy in Romania to withdraw its military attache and his assistant (the
>> "persona non-grata" formulation was used).
>
>
> Strictly speaking, 'persona non grata' is not a recommendation, it's a
> rather forceful order to leave.  Do you mean that they threatened to declare
> him persona non grata, and then he left without the declaration, or was he
> actually declared?
>

Not just threatened, the military attache was declared persona non grata. In
diplomatic terms this is expressed as a recommendation for the government of
the other country to recall that person, otherwise within 24 hours that
individual is no longer considered by the host country as being covered by
diplomatic immunity. The diplomats that are being declared  persona non
grata leave right away because when the term expires they can be arrested.

The news that a second person - which later was understood to be the
assistant of the first person - followed suit came the next day. Then there
was talk that they were actually recalled together. Actually, I don't know
if they were the same day, or one day removed, but I think that is not
essential.


> There were several speculations as to who was the expulsed military
>> attache. According to some sources, it was the military attache Sergii
>> Ilnitskii, according to others, it was the naval and defense attache Anatoli
>> Yatseniuk. Until today Ukraine has not responded with a mirror expulsion.
>> Ukrainian, Romanian, and Bulgarian press comment as self-understood that the
>> information was passed to Russia, and that the Ukrainian attache was himself
>> only an intermediary.
>
>
> Any word on whether Ukrainian government was involved, or themselves a
> victim of infiltration?
>

There were never any accusations at Ukraine. The press both in Romania and
in Ukraine say that Ukraine is not involved, but i don't know whether the
source saying this is official or not, Ukrainian or Romanian.

"Infiltration" is not quite the proper word, IMO. I am sure those
individuals were faithful to their original allegeance to the Soviet
intelligence services. To say they infiltrated something would mean to say
that post-Soviet countries had intelligence agencies of their own at some
point and that those agencies acquired spies. Which is not true, because
maybe except the Baltics all the other countries had not even governments of
their own, and simply used the Soviet administration system for the
starters. It is one thing to start from (almost) zero and add new personnel,
and another to start with 95% being members of the Communist Party of the
Soviet Union, and try to remove them. The 1989-91 period barely replaced 5%
when it comes to Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, and perhaps even less when it
comes to Central Asia.


> Until that date, he had an "autorization of access of strictly secret
>> special importance level".
>
>
> By <http://www.orniss.ro/en/353e_G.html>, it seems this corresponds to the
> NATO secrecy classification level TOP SECRET.
>

I have no idea. I just translated from Romanian. Perhaps you are right. The
press speculated that SRI might have fed the chain some fake info for some
time. So, perhaps the game became lame, and they ended it with an arrest.
The commentators say that a true spy is generally not arrested in so much
public light. So, perhaps, they wanted it as a warning to prevent new
recruits by the "non-allied power". The info stolen (the Russians would now
have doubts as to what exactly is true and what is fake in what they got)
seems to be only about Romanian military, and specifically about the ground
forces, and perhaps something about Romanian military communication. As of
now, USA and other countries share very little sensible information about
their armies with Romania, so I don't think they worry. On the contrary,
people both in Romania and in the west are surprised that Romanians have
some service that catches spies, even as pity ones as in this case.

A recent Romanian joke: "Achim. Floricel Achim." (in contrast to "Bond.
James Bond.") :) His first name is also very funny. The standard name is
Florin. Floricel is a diminutive, suitable if you have age 3 or 4, and his
parents must have been a little eccentric to give him that name.

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/3/12 Digwuren <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com">digwuren@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,=
 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 15:19,=
 Dorin Cheptea <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dorin.cheptea@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">dorin.cheptea@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204=
, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

On the same day Romanian Foreign Ministry recommended the Ukrainian Embassy=
 in Romania to withdraw its military attache and his assistant (the &quot;p=
ersona non-grata&quot; formulation was used).</blockquote><div><br></div>

</div><div>Strictly speaking, &#39;persona non grata&#39; is not a recommen=
dation, it&#39;s a rather forceful order to leave. =A0Do you mean that they=
 threatened to declare him persona non grata, and then he left without the =
declaration, or was he actually declared?</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Not just threatened, the milit=
ary attache was declared persona non grata. In diplomatic terms this is exp=
ressed as a recommendation for the government of the other country to recal=
l that person, otherwise within 24 hours that individual is no longer consi=
dered by the host country as being covered by diplomatic immunity. The dipl=
omats that are being declared=A0 persona non grata leave right away because=
 when the term expires they can be arrested. <br>
<br>The news that a second person - which later was understood to be the as=
sistant of the first person - followed suit came the next day. Then there w=
as talk that they were actually recalled together. Actually, I don&#39;t kn=
ow if they were the same day, or one day removed, but I think that is not e=
ssential. <br>
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
There were several speculations as to who was the expulsed military attache=
. According to some sources, it was<span> the military attache Sergii Ilnit=
skii, according to others, it was the naval and defense attache </span><spa=
n>Anatoli
Yatseniuk.</span> Until today Ukraine has not responded with a mirror expul=
sion. Ukrainian, Romanian, and Bulgarian press comment as self-understood t=
hat the information was passed to Russia, and that the Ukrainian attache wa=
s himself only an intermediary.</blockquote>

<div><br></div></div><div>Any word on whether Ukrainian government was invo=
lved, or themselves a victim of infiltration?</div><div class=3D"im"><div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>There were never any accusations at =
Ukraine. The press both in Romania and in Ukraine say that Ukraine is not i=
nvolved, but i don&#39;t know whether the source saying this is official or=
 not, Ukrainian or Romanian.<br>
<br>&quot;Infiltration&quot; is not quite the proper word, IMO. I am sure t=
hose individuals were faithful to their original allegeance to the Soviet i=
ntelligence services. To say they infiltrated something would mean to say t=
hat post-Soviet countries had intelligence agencies of their own at some po=
int and that those agencies acquired spies. Which is not true, because mayb=
e except the Baltics all the other countries had not even governments of th=
eir own, and simply used the Soviet administration system for the starters.=
 It is one thing to start from (almost) zero and add new personnel, and ano=
ther to start with 95% being members of the Communist Party of the Soviet U=
nion, and try to remove them.  The 1989-91 period barely replaced 5% when i=
t comes to Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, and perhaps even less when it comes t=
o Central Asia.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

Until that date, he had an &quot;autorization of access of strictly secret =
special importance level&quot;.</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>By &l=
t;<a href=3D"http://www.orniss.ro/en/353e_G.html" target=3D"_blank">http://=
www.orniss.ro/en/353e_G.html</a>&gt;, it seems this corresponds to the NATO=
 secrecy classification level TOP SECRET.</div>

<div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I have no idea. I just translated fr=
om Romanian. Perhaps you are right. The press speculated that SRI might hav=
e fed the chain some fake info for some time. So, perhaps the game became l=
ame, and they ended it with an arrest. The commentators say that a true spy=
 is generally not arrested in so much public light. So, perhaps, they wante=
d it as a warning to prevent new recruits by the &quot;non-allied power&quo=
t;. The info stolen (the Russians would now have doubts as to what exactly =
is true and what is fake in what they got) seems to be only about Romanian =
military, and specifically about the ground forces, and perhaps something a=
bout Romanian military communication. As of now, USA and other countries sh=
are very little sensible information about their armies with Romania, so I =
don&#39;t think they worry. On the contrary, people both in Romania and in =
the west are surprised that Romanians have some service that catches spies,=
 even as pity ones as in this case.<br>
</div></div><br>A recent Romanian joke: &quot;Achim. Floricel Achim.&quot; =
(in contrast to &quot;Bond. James Bond.&quot;) :) His first name is also ve=
ry funny. The standard name is Florin. Floricel is a diminutive, suitable i=
f you have age 3 or 4, and his parents must have been a little eccentric to=
 give him that name. <br>
=A0

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