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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: piotr micula <basiaipiotr@yahoo.com>
To: Wikipedia statistics <folks@wikipedometer.net>
In-Reply-To: <6c9a05ec0907310511v6f81f3ai169b56058116c0e3@mail.gmail.com>
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	Content preview:  Molobo, I am sorry, but I cannot really comprehend your
	ignorance. We are talking about 100,000 Poles brutally murdered just
	because they were Polish, and we are talking about a group of users,
	such as Bobanni, Bandurist and Lvivske, who go out of their way to
	excuse the murderers. If anyone is stupid here, it is you, sorry, but it
	is a fact. Â And what are you apologizing for? Or perhaps copy and paste
	the apology I have written here: Â "As a Pole,Â I want to apologize for
	all Polish editors who dare mention the slaughter of 100,000 other
	Poles. I am sure that we can live together, with a mass murderer Roman
	Skuhevych being a Ukrainian hero. I am sorry again, those Poles were
	obviously guilty because they lived in Volhynia". Â Shame on you, shame.
	And please do not tell others what to do. [...] 
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Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
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	Content preview:  Molobo, I am sorry, but I cannot really comprehend your
	ignorance. We are talking about 100,000 Poles brutally murdered just
	because they were Polish, and we are talking about a group of users,
	such as Bobanni, Bandurist and Lvivske, who go out of their way to
	excuse the murderers. If anyone is stupid here, it is you, sorry, but it
	is a fact. Â And what are you apologizing for? Or perhaps copy and paste
	the apology I have written here: Â "As a Pole,Â I want to apologize for
	all Polish editors who dare mention the slaughter of 100,000 other
	Poles. I am sure that we can live together, with a mass murderer Roman
	Skuhevych being a Ukrainian hero. I am sorry again, those Poles were
	obviously guilty because they lived in Volhynia". Â Shame on you, shame.
	And please do not tell others what to do. [...] 
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Molobo, I am sorry, but I cannot really comprehend your ignorance. We are t=
alking about 100,000 Poles brutally murdered just because they were Polish,=
 and we are talking about a group of users, such as Bobanni, Bandurist and =
Lvivske, who go out of their way to excuse the murderers. If anyone is stup=
id here, it is you, sorry, but it is a fact.=20
=C2=A0
And what are you apologizing for? Or perhaps copy and paste the apology I h=
ave written here:
=C2=A0
"As a Pole,=C2=A0I want to apologize for all Polish editors who dare mentio=
n the slaughter of 100,000 other Poles. I am sure that we can live together=
, with a mass murderer Roman Skuhevych being a Ukrainian hero. I am sorry a=
gain, those Poles were obviously guilty because they lived in Volhynia".
=C2=A0
Shame on you, shame. And please do not tell others what to do.=20

--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Molobo Molobo <molobus@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.
To: "Wikipedia statistics" <folks@wikipedometer.net>
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 7:11 AM


Indeed, I am always saddened when some kind of magic-stupidity field falls =
on my fellow countrymen when dealing with the Ukrainian issues. Guys really=
 come down and stay away from those topics if you can't handle it. Really t=
hey are far more important subjects and more pressing matters to attend to.

I apologize as a Pole for any problems Ostap and his fellow Ukrainians had.

I think it would be good if Poeticibent apologised for anything taken as pe=
rsonal insult to the fellow editors, while removing those parts of sentence=
s. Would be good if you would promise to take a week of editing subjects co=
nnected to the issues. Your contributions are extremely welcomed and valuab=
le but please remember that we don't want to lose you to some reckless bick=
ering on discussion pages.=20
Also using such phrases as "I know it hurts having to accept the responsibi=
lity for a genocide =E2=80=93 as a nation =E2=80=93 but it is a necessary i=
ngredient in the process of future reconciliation between the two peoples" =
not only does serve to help but inflames the discussion further. Not to men=
tion that it is a very extreme POV take on what happened historically.

Ostap if you could tone down the argument and ask for Poeticibent to beheav=
e in more reserved matter ? Perhaps suggesting that instead of ban, Poetici=
bent should take some time off from the article ?



2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>

And now of course Wiki has crashed and I can't do anything...


2009/7/31 radek szulga <rsszulga@gmail.com>




This is unfortunate but I think both Poeticbent and Ostap didn't realize th=
at they could work things through here rather than publicly - let's not bre=
ak up the group but figure out how we can resolve this w/o anyone getting a=
 ban or a block. Ostap should pedal back his suggestion for a ban as soon a=
s possible and say he's fine with a warning or a dispute resolution process=
.

I got a little bit involved in the article earlier, before my break and was=
 trying to reconcile things with Faustian peacfully - it seemed to be worki=
ng ok but then I had to leave for work related stuff. The presense of both =
Pawel5583 and Lvivske is not helping on this article. I still am undecided =
whether Faustian is potential "trouble" but he seems to respond well if one=
 treats him with respect and calmly discusses things out first.
The most important thing on articles like these is to keep one's cool. Sayi=
ng things like "You don't seem to know how to write well, so please let me =
take care of the article's structure." is going to piss off even the most g=
ood faithed editor. Richard should say something to the effect that he's go=
tten ahead of himself and he's ready to calmly talk throught things.

I'm going to comment to the effect that it's an emotionally charged issue, =
Faustian has been making substantive changes that not everybody agrees with=
, that the involved parties should talk this out.
I can also email Faustian and see if he's willing to back down on this - li=
ke I said, he seemed reasonable to me before and maybe he'd be willing. May=
be Ostap should do the same.

But above all - yes, please discuss things like this here first. Not just i=
f and when another of our members is involved but also just when editing to=
pics that somebody on here might be concerned about. If I'm going to edit P=
olish-Ukrainian topics I'd give Ostap a heads up first. Likewise with other=
 areas. This is a security issue for us as well.

I'm going to comment on the thread and await further discussion here.

Radek



2009/7/31 Digwuren <digwuren@gmail.com>






On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:30, Piotr Konieczny <piokon@post.pl> wrote:


I am afraid I will have to withdraw from the WPM group and suggest all
Polish editors do so as well. With a member suggesting a ban on another
for a petty issue, I no longer have confidence that this group integrity
is uncompromised. With ban proposals on ANI against one of the most
productive members of the Polish community, I will have to take a stance
against the Ukrainian editors, and I cannot assume that this
communication channel nor anything I will say here are secure anymore,
particularly as some of the things said here can be easily used to
justify a ban on the members of this discussion group.


Piotrus, please, calm down. =C2=A0I hope Ostap just didn't think it through=
 properly. =C2=A0Poeticbent has written very rarely here; perhaps Ostap jus=
t didn't realise he can resolve any outstanding issues with Poeticbent thro=
ugh this list in a faster, less dramu-laden and more discreet way than on W=
ikipedia.




What I find problematic is that one member of our group is proposing aban o=
n another:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DWikipedia:Administrators%27_not=
iceboard/Edit_warring&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D305222320


This *is* problematic. =C2=A0Ostap, please do not do it.


Minor disagreements on-Wikipedia are OK, and actually encouraged -- it make=
s it harder for anybody opposing us claim that we're sockpuppets of each ot=
her --, but Poeticbent has been under severe risk of banning on Wikipedia f=
or months now. =C2=A0A push like this can realise this risk, and that would=
 be rather problematic.


One of the reasons we set up this list was so that the participants could, =
through having trust in each other's judgment, and consult each other for a=
ppropriate actions on Wikipedia. =C2=A0Proposing a ban on Poeticbent on Wik=
ipedia undermines this trust, and it's a bad idea. =C2=A0Besides, if you fi=
nd Poeticbent is doing something rash, rude or just plain silly, contacting=
 him privately (or through the list so other supportive editors can help in=
 resolving any ambiguities) is bound to be more effective.


Poeticbent, as Piotrus said, please avoid continued reverting. =C2=A0Wikipe=
dia is notorious for lax enforcement of all sorts of policies, but it sure =
loves the 3RR policy -- because it's so technical, so easy to assert and en=
force. =C2=A0If you find an opposing party is reverting you repeatedly, cal=
l in help through the list. =C2=A0There are about ten of us; we can easily =
out-revert any single opponent *and* thus demonstrade wide consensus if it'=
s necessary. =C2=A0Then, 3RR will work for us, not against us.


All that having been said, any group of people is bound to get into conflic=
t every now and then, and we're no exception to this rule. =C2=A0But let's =
try to work out the conflict in a civil, rational manner. =C2=A0We don't ha=
ve fault-seeking Wikipedian politicians here to try and twist everybody's e=
very word, so we should be able to do it better than it's possible on Wikip=
edia.

--=20
Andres Soolo


_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks




_______________________________________________
Wikipedia statistics discussion list
folks@wikipedometer.net
http://wikipedometer.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/folks



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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Molobo, I am sorry, but I cannot really =
comprehend your ignorance. We are talking about 100,000 Poles brutally murd=
ered just because they were Polish, and we are talking about a group of use=
rs, such as Bobanni, Bandurist and Lvivske, who go out of their way to excu=
se the murderers. If anyone is stupid here, it is you, sorry, but it is a f=
act. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And what are you apologizing for? Or perhaps copy and paste the apolog=
y I have written here:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"As a Pole,&nbsp;I want to apologize for all Polish editors who dare m=
ention the slaughter of 100,000 other Poles. I am sure that we can live tog=
ether, with a mass murderer Roman Skuhevych being a Ukrainian hero. I am so=
rry again, those Poles were obviously guilty because they lived in Volhynia=
".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Shame on you, shame. And please do not tell others what to do. <BR><BR=
>--- On <B>Fri, 7/31/09, Molobo Molobo <I>&lt;molobus@gmail.com&gt;</I></B>=
 wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Molobo Molobo &lt;molobus@gmail.com&gt;<BR>=
Subject: Re: [WPM] HELP!! Radek , Piotrus, Tymek and others.<BR>To: "Wikipe=
dia statistics" &lt;folks@wikipedometer.net&gt;<BR>Date: Friday, July 31, 2=
009, 7:11 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1166418831>Indeed, I am always saddened when some kind of magi=
c-stupidity field falls on my fellow countrymen when dealing with the Ukrai=
nian issues. Guys really come down and stay away from those topics if you c=
an't handle it. Really they are far more important subjects and more pressi=
ng matters to attend to.<BR><BR>I apologize as a Pole for any problems Osta=
p and his fellow Ukrainians had.<BR><BR>I think it would be good if Poetici=
bent apologised for anything taken as personal insult to the fellow editors=
, while removing those parts of sentences. Would be good if you would promi=
se to take a week of editing subjects connected to the issues. Your contrib=
utions are extremely welcomed and valuable but please remember that we don'=
t want to lose you to some reckless bickering on discussion pages. <BR>Also=
 using such phrases as "I know it hurts having to accept the responsibility=
 for a genocide =E2=80=93 as a nation =E2=80=93 but it is a necessary ingre=
dient
 in the process of future reconciliation between the two peoples" not only =
does serve to help but inflames the discussion further. Not to mention that=
 it is a very extreme POV take on what happened historically.<BR><BR>Ostap =
if you could tone down the argument and ask for Poeticibent to beheave in m=
ore reserved matter ? Perhaps suggesting that instead of ban, Poeticibent s=
hould take some time off from the article ?<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/7/31 radek szulga <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@g=
mail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">And now of course Wiki=
 has crashed and I can't do anything...<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/7/31 radek szulga <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Drsszulga@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:rsszulga@gmail.com">rsszulga@g=
mail.com</A>&gt;</SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dh5><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">This is unfortunate bu=
t I think both Poeticbent and Ostap didn't realize that they could work thi=
ngs through here rather than publicly - let's not break up the group but fi=
gure out how we can resolve this w/o anyone getting a ban or a block. Ostap=
 should pedal back his suggestion for a ban as soon as possible and say he'=
s fine with a warning or a dispute resolution process.<BR><BR>I got a littl=
e bit involved in the article earlier, before my break and was trying to re=
concile things with Faustian peacfully - it seemed to be working ok but the=
n I had to leave for work related stuff. The presense of both Pawel5583 and=
 Lvivske is not helping on this article. I still am undecided whether Faust=
ian is potential "trouble" but he seems to respond well if one treats him w=
ith respect and calmly discusses things out first.<BR>The most important
 thing on articles like these is to keep one's cool. Saying things like "Yo=
u don't seem to know how to write well, so please let me take care of the a=
rticle's structure." is going to piss off even the most good faithed editor=
. Richard should say something to the effect that he's gotten ahead of hims=
elf and he's ready to calmly talk throught things.<BR><BR>I'm going to comm=
ent to the effect that it's an emotionally charged issue, Faustian has been=
 making substantive changes that not everybody agrees with, that the involv=
ed parties should talk this out.<BR>I can also email Faustian and see if he=
's willing to back down on this - like I said, he seemed reasonable to me b=
efore and maybe he'd be willing. Maybe Ostap should do the same.<BR><BR>But=
 above all - yes, please discuss things like this here first. Not just if a=
nd when another of our members is involved but also just when editing topic=
s that somebody on here might be concerned about. If I'm going to
 edit Polish-Ukrainian topics I'd give Ostap a heads up first. Likewise wit=
h other areas. This is a security issue for us as well.<BR><BR>I'm going to=
 comment on the thread and await further discussion here.<BR><BR>Radek<BR><=
BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/7/31 Digwuren <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A href=3D"=
http://us.mc328.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ddigwuren@gmail.com" target=
=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:digwuren@gmail.com">digwuren@gma=
il.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:30, Piotr Konieczny <SP=
AN dir=3Dltr>&lt;piokon@post.pl&gt;</SPAN> wrote:</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I am afraid I will hav=
e to withdraw from the WPM group and suggest all</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Polish editors do so a=
s well. With a member suggesting a ban on another</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">for a petty issue, I n=
o longer have confidence that this group integrity</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">is uncompromised. With=
 ban proposals on ANI against one of the most</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">productive members of =
the Polish community, I will have to take a stance</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">against the Ukrainian =
editors, and I cannot assume that this</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">communication channel =
nor anything I will say here are secure anymore,</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">particularly as some o=
f the things said here can be easily used to</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">justify a ban on the m=
embers of this discussion group.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><B>Piotrus</B>, please, calm down. &nbsp;I hope Ostap just didn't thin=
k it through properly. &nbsp;Poeticbent has written very rarely here; perha=
ps Ostap just didn't realise he can resolve any outstanding issues with Poe=
ticbent through this list in a faster, less dramu-laden and more discreet w=
ay than on Wikipedia.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>What I find problematic is that one member of our group is proposing a=
</DIV>ban on another:<BR><A href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit=
le=3DWikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&amp;diff=3Dprev&a=
mp;oldid=3D305222320" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://en.wikipedia.or=
g/w/index.php?title=3DWikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&=
amp;diff=3Dprev&amp;oldid=3D305222320</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>This *is* problematic. &nbsp;<B>Ostap</B>, please do not do it.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Minor disagreements on-Wikipedia are OK, and actually encouraged -- it=
 makes it harder for anybody opposing us claim that we're sockpuppets of ea=
ch other --, but Poeticbent has been under severe risk of banning on Wikipe=
dia for months now. &nbsp;A push like this can realise this risk, and that =
would be rather problematic.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>One of the reasons we set up this list was so that the participants co=
uld, through having trust in each other's judgment, and consult each other =
for appropriate actions on Wikipedia. &nbsp;Proposing a ban on Poeticbent o=
n Wikipedia undermines this trust, and it's a bad idea. &nbsp;Besides, if y=
ou find Poeticbent is doing something rash, rude or just plain silly, conta=
cting him privately (or through the list so other supportive editors can he=
lp in resolving any ambiguities) is bound to be more effective.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><B>Poeticbent</B>, as Piotrus said, please avoid continued reverting. =
&nbsp;Wikipedia is notorious for lax enforcement of all sorts of policies, =
but it sure loves the 3RR policy -- because it's so technical, so easy to a=
ssert and enforce. &nbsp;If you find an opposing party is reverting you rep=
eatedly, call in help through the list. &nbsp;There are about ten of us; we=
 can easily out-revert any single opponent *and* thus demonstrade wide cons=
ensus if it's necessary. &nbsp;Then, 3RR will work for us, not against us.<=
/DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All that having been said, any group of people is bound to get into co=
nflict every now and then, and we're no exception to this rule. &nbsp;But l=
et's try to work out the conflict in a civil, rational manner. &nbsp;We don=
't have fault-seeking Wikipedian politicians here to try and twist everybod=
y's every word, so we should be able to do it better than it's possible on =
Wikipedia.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><FONT color=3D#888888>-- <BR>Andres Soolo<BR></FONT><B=
R></DIV></DIV>
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